[supercat25]

Originally Posted by Fungineer

From the leaked Indigo presentation, they list the phone as having WiFi/UMA, but no mention of VoIP (or more specifically, SIP). UMA is "Unlicensed Mobile Access". UMA allows your GSM call and GPRS data services to be done over a WLAN network (through an IPSec tunnel - so it's sort of VoIP but not what you'd traditionally call it). All UMA does is replace your connection from phone -> base station -> carrier network with phone -> Access Point -> internet -> carrier network - this makes things like call handovers a snap, because to the carrier, you roving from a base station to an AP is the same as you hopping base stations while driving down the highway. This does however allow the carrier to still track every minute of voice time you use. whether they choose to bill you the same or not is another matter.

I know Rogers is trying to do this type of service with their home phone in 07 So if they do this does the end user save any money?

[Fungineer]

Originally Posted by supercat25

I know Rogers is trying to do this type of service with their home phone in 07 So if they do this does the end user save any money?

Don't know. T-Mobile just launched this service (Hotspot@home or something) that is $20/mo for "unlimited" UMA calls, though you have to be paying $40/mo in service already to be "eligible", and I'm sure that $20 doesn't cover long distance fees, etc - just doesn't use up your cell minutes. I expect that if more carriers adopt it then the price for service will go down. Conceptually, this is a push for mobile operators to grab some of the home-phone business, so any telco that already offers that sort of service (AT&T, Sprint, Bell) likely won't jump on UMA anytime soon. We'll see.

[noeffectx]

Originally Posted by Stinsonddog

Still the core RIM market was business and right now the only really option to tether is VZ's EV-DO, and the 8800 doesn't move into that space which allows you to tether in major markets, if I understand what this does. Let' say I go to a hotel, I still need to pay for wifi so in that case I would probably use my PC.

I agree on stinsonddog's on these. I'd rather have umts and will be able to tether my laptop everywhere without having to find hotspots.

[Hobbesgsr]

Originally Posted by noeffectx

I agree on stinsonddog's on these. I'd rather have umts and will be able to tether my laptop everywhere without having to find hotspots.

Especially convienient if you take a train to work, or are a passenger in a car.

Rogers launched their UMTS/HSDPA network this early November. I just purchased one of their Sierra Wireless HSDPA PCMCIA modems for my laptop. It feels faster than EVDO and much more responsive (more throughput and lower latency).

It would be truly shame not to be able to utilize this much faster network on the new 8800.

[apple85]

I may be missing it and I've re read it 3 times, but I don't see if your at home using your WIFI Network to make a call how they could charge you for the minutes. If someone wants to put it into lamen terms I'd appreciate it.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by apple85

I may be missing it and I've re read it 3 times, but I don't see if your at home using your WIFI Network to make a call how they could charge you for the minutes. If someone wants to put it into lamen terms I'd appreciate it.

OK, in layman's terms, here's the maybe overly-simplistic answer: Because for call completion to the number you're dialing, the call ends up on the carrier network at some point. For WiFi/UMA to work, you have to have a phone that supports it, AND a carrier that supports the service on their network. Anytime you're using your "wireless cell phone" only the first network link is wireless via cell towers. The rest of the call routing is transported over (usually) wired carrier backbone networks. In this case, the internet is simply used as the "first link" into their network (in lieu of a cell-tower radio link) and then carried on their backbone network just like any other call, so their ability to track the minutes you use is exactly the same.

How they choose to charge for those minutes they can track is a different issue however. T-Mobile, for instance, is already advertising an inexpensive "add-on" service that gives you UNLIMITED minutes over WiFi, if you purchase the addon. See "T-Mobile's WiFi/UMA marketing pitch."

Now what that marketing pitch seems to imply, and I'm a bit skeptical about, is that you get UNLIMITED minutes only "from home" and "at T-Mobile HotSpots." I guess its possible to track what IP address and ISP network you're coming in from, but its not easy, and with dynamic IP's from most ISP's, I'm thinking its nearly impossible to tell, for instance, if you're connecting from MY home network via Time-Warner Cable, vs. my buddy's home network across town via Time Warner Cable. Will be interesting to see if they make an attempt to differentiate, instead of just making ALL WiFi connected minutes free.

But you DO have to purchase the WiFi/UMA add-on service, to get it to work at all from WiFi - and each carrier can choose to price the UMA service as they see fit competitively.

[Brad00111]

Ok here's a question for you all. One of the best selling points (in my opinion) is security with a BB. So if I am on a WiFi connection and am browsing the web or even chatting on the phone, does that not open me up to being hacked, listened to, or my data being monitored by god only knows who out there? Isn't the MDS on a BB much more secure and protective than browsing the internet on a wifi connection on my BB, or have I been living in a false sense of security?

[kurichan]

UMTS/HSDPA are technologies for widely deployed *mobile* high speed access. They're supposed to be seamless, carrier supported broadband solutions for *mobility* that spotty and often unsupported WiFi simply cannot provide.

Remember, smart phones are meant to be totally mobile devices, not WLAN connected. WiFi is nice when you can get it, but I'd never depend on it for mission critical situations when mobile.

Without UMTS/HSDPA, Cingular continues to fall behind in solutions for highly mobile professionals who need high speed data access.

EVDO and call quality/lack of drops is the only reason I am willing to stay with Verizon, despite the cost and the slow product releases. I suspect there are lots out there like me.

That being said, as soon as Cingular deploys HSDPA widely and improves network quality in Southern California, I'd jump to them in a second.

Come on Cingular! COMPETE DARN IT!

[Stinsonddog]

Originally Posted by kurichan

UMTS/HSDPA are technologies for widely deployed *mobile* high speed access. They're supposed to be seamless, carrier supported broadband solutions for *mobility* that spotty and often unsupported WiFi simply cannot provide.

Remember, smart phones are meant to be totally mobile devices, not WLAN connected. WiFi is nice when you can get it, but I'd never depend on it for mission critical situations when mobile.

Without UMTS/HSDPA, Cingular continues to fall behind in solutions for highly mobile professionals who need high speed data access.

EVDO and call quality/lack of drops is the only reason I am willing to stay with Verizon, despite the cost and the slow product releases. I suspect there are lots out there like me.

That being said, as soon as Cingular deploys HSDPA widely and improves network quality in Southern California, I'd jump to them in a second.

Come on Cingular! COMPETE DARN IT!

I agree completely. I am disappointed that they lag here too. I would love to be able to tether at real speeds. EDGE is fine to grab and email but not to view the web IMO. This would save me alot when going to hotels.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by Stinsonddog

I agree completely. I am disappointed that they lag here too. I would love to be able to tether at real speeds. EDGE is fine to grab and email but not to view the web IMO. This would save me alot when going to hotels.

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand the logic behind the statement "Come on Cingular! COMPETE DARN IT!" Just jumped over to the Cingular site, and they offer SIX different UMTS/HSDPA phones, along with three PC cards. So, seems to me like the proper statement is "Come on RIM! COMPETE DARN IT!" The fact that UMTS/HSDPA isn't on the 8800 is RIM's, not Cingulars - the phone apparently isn't going to have it whether you get if from Cingular, T-Mobile or anyone else.

[Fungineer]

Originally Posted by Brad00111

Ok here's a question for you all. One of the best selling points (in my opinion) is security with a BB. So if I am on a WiFi connection and am browsing the web or even chatting on the phone, does that not open me up to being hacked, listened to, or my data being monitored by god only knows who out there? Isn't the MDS on a BB much more secure and protective than browsing the internet on a wifi connection on my BB, or have I been living in a false sense of security?

Well, your wireless connection from your handheld to your access point will likely be protected by the same security standards that are in place for your laptop or other 802.11 devices, that being the 802.11i security (WPA, WPA2). I don't believe RIM would launch a product without support for that.

What the MDS provides is another layer of security over the wireless link, sort of like a VPN tunnel into your corporate LAN. if the wireless link is cellular or WiFi/UMA, doesn't matter. Now, if you were doing straight HTTP browsing from your phone using WiFi, then you only have the OTA protection offered by your AP - once you go from the AP to your home network to an ISP, it'd be treated the same as all your other internet traffic, so yes, you could be snooped.
I haven't seen a bullet point though that says this device supports HTTP browsing (their current handhelds only do WAP and MDS) - if this was something they were going to offer, you'd think it would be up there in bold print.

[apple85]

Thanks I get it now!

[kurichan]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Hmm, I'm not sure I understand the logic behind the statement "Come on Cingular! COMPETE DARN IT!" Just jumped over to the Cingular site, and they offer SIX different UMTS/HSDPA phones, along with three PC cards. So, seems to me like the proper statement is "Come on RIM! COMPETE DARN IT!" The fact that UMTS/HSDPA isn't on the 8800 is RIM's, not Cingulars - the phone apparently isn't going to have it whether you get if from Cingular, T-Mobile or anyone else.

I suspect that RIM is not willing to roll out phones for such limited network coverage. Highly mobile highly demanding Blackberry users would crow pretty loud about having hardware they can't use. Look at how VZW users gripe about GPS... I think Cingular needs to lay the UMTS egg before RIM hatches the hardware...

[robbym]

I agree totally! The approach to technologies has to be influenced by the relative lack (or slow growth) of new infrastructure (as opposed to patching existing). One also has to consider how wireless providers and hardware manufacturers work together, as there have been numerous cases where legal issues, money or other disagreements have mucked up the path to technological bliss.

If RIM controlled all the chips and all the towers we might see some progress...

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by kurichan

I suspect that RIM is not willing to roll out phones for such limited network coverage. Highly mobile highly demanding Blackberry users would crow pretty loud about having hardware they can't use. Look at how VZW users gripe about GPS... I think Cingular needs to lay the UMTS egg before RIM hatches the hardware...

Umm, again I say, I think Cingular already HAS! And you can utilize their UMTS/HSDPA network NOW in most major markets - you just can't do it with a BlackBerry because RIM hasn't provided a SINGLE North American device with the capability.
From the Cingular website:

Technology

The Cingular 3G network uses HSDPA/UMTS technology (High Speed Downlink Packet Access/Universal Mobile Telephone System), which makes it possible to enjoy a variety of feature-rich wireless services. It also gives Cingular the advantage of offering simultaneous voice and data services. That means you can talk and use the Internet at the same time. How's that for multitasking?
Availability

Right now, Cingular's 3G mobile broadband data network is available in most major metropolitan areas. We're working to expand the network so more people in more places can enjoy it soon.

Looking at coverage maps, my metro area is pretty much totally blanketed by UMTS/HSPDA coverage by Cingular. So again I say, don't ask Cingular to compete, ask RIM to compete! And, just how much more of an "egg" do you think Cingular needs to "lay" before you'd ask and expect RIM to offer at least ONE BlackBerry model to support the network? Come on RIM!! COMPETE, DARN IT!! Compete with the Samsung Blackjack, the Cingular 8525, and SEVERAL others!

[bigdongers]

The 8800 wont be UMTS but there will be another BB about 6 months after the 8800 which will be UMTS/HSDPA enabled.

[NCBuckeye]

Originally Posted by bigdongers

The 8800 wont be UMTS but there will be another BB about 6 months after the 8800 which will be UMTS/HSDPA enabled.

Please explain further!

[bigdongers]

Originally Posted by NCBuckeye

Please explain further!

Well I posted this information in a thread in the Rumours section in October and didnt get a single reply! http://www.blackberryforums.com/rumo...ry-coming.html

[BoxWave]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Umm, again I say, I think Cingular already HAS! And you can utilize their UMTS/HSDPA network NOW in most major markets - you just can't do it with a BlackBerry because RIM hasn't provided a SINGLE North American device with the capability.
From the Cingular website:


Looking at coverage maps, my metro area is pretty much totally blanketed by UMTS/HSPDA coverage by Cingular. So again I say, don't ask Cingular to compete, ask RIM to compete! And, just how much more of an "egg" do you think Cingular needs to "lay" before you'd ask and expect RIM to offer at least ONE BlackBerry model to support the network? Come on RIM!! COMPETE, DARN IT!! Compete with the Samsung Blackjack, the Cingular 8525, and SEVERAL others!

Yes I agree, BB needs to put something out.. I mean, the network is there and only growing.. Why is it that there are only like 2 phones that can actually operate on the new 3G network anyways? I would think that more manufacturers would take advantage of it.

Chris-
BoxWave Accessories

[kdo99]

Originally Posted by Stinsonddog

why no UMTS/HSDPA?

the legal battles for IPR in the 3G standard (WCDMA or CDMA2000) is ongoing right now. QCOM vs NOK, QCOM vs BDCM, ERIC vs SAM and...ahem (shameless plug)...IDCC vs NOK. once the legal dust settles and FRAND royalty rates are AGREED upon by the big boys, RIM can sign a 3G license.

i doubt RIM would make a 3G phone before they were on sound legal ground. we all know what happened last time RIM got into an IPR fight.