[jsconyers]

Originally Posted by mriff

Wait a minute. I get it now. You're Yoda.

This cracked me up.

I agree with Kathryn's post about principle above as well. Very well stated!

[Flight714]

I don't understand why we're even having a discussion on whether or not it's morally acceptable to rape prisoners, especially those whose crimes haven't been established yet. It's absolutely wrong. I know we've all heard this line before, but we can't stoop to that level, even if our enemy is willing to go there.
One of the defining pillars of our nation's power is the use of restraint. A strong country does what it can do, but a truly powerful nation will have the strength to hold itself back when it needs to, and historically we've been extremely reluctant to exert our military influence abroad. Think about that scene from "Schindler's List" where Schindler and the officer talk about how true power lies in forgiveness; or "I pardon you". Not laying down the hammer when you have every justification for doing so.
It may seem like we have a justification for abusing prisoners (provided they actually had some connection with the terrorism), but we are clearly the stronger force, and I believe we have a moral obligation to treat them with honor even if they would not do the same for us.
Another reason I'm against this kind of treatment is that historically, treatment of prisoners abroad eventually makes its way back home. I recently read an article about how waterboarding was used by US troops in the Phillipines in the aftermath of the Spanish-American War, and shortly after those troops came home, cases of police waterboarding suspects in Chicago and a few other major cities came to light. I'd say something about how amazingly blind and/or forgiving the nationalist is to his country's atrocities and enraged by those committed by the opposition, but I think Orwell already covered that one a long time ago.

[Dubdub]

What is really starting to gripe my butt about all of this is the media is picking it up and publishing it as gospel without even looking or considering the source of the information.

IMHO, the bad guys are the ones making the complaints and we (at least the media) is believing every word they say. Why wouldn't the bad guys make us out like torturers, etc? It is in their best interest to get the US public off of their backs and onto the backs of the military and intelligence community so the pressure is now removed and the bad guys can go back to being bad again without us in the way.

IMHO, if whatever was done saved one US life, then I am all for it. If you don't agree, I'm sorry.

[test54]

Dub, but I think the difference is that our own govt. has admitted to torturing people. Not the enemy making wild claims but admissions of torturing individuals more than 180 times. Then you have a Major General in the Army saying he has photographic proof of rape of both men and women in Abu Graib. Again its not the enemy making claims its our own people either admitting it or saying what happened.

The way to get back to the bad guys being bad is to admit wrongdoing and move on. These actions just back up the terrorists claims so the faster we can change out methods and move on the better but that does involve acknowledging these acts.

[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by test54

Dub, but I think the difference is that our own govt. has admitted to torturing people. Not the enemy making wild claims but admissions of torturing individuals more than 180 times.

My question is: was this approved of and systemic, or was it a handful of cowboys who got out of control???

If the latter, it's a PR problem but not cause for mutiny. If the former...

[test54]

Well Bush & Cheney have already said they approved "Enhanced Interrogation" which includes waterboarding. To me that is torture sanctioned by the highest elected officials.

Now for the transfer of prisoners to 3rd parties so they can be further tortured, the approvals were given by someone.

The Rape of prisoners I hope would not have been approved by anyone but there are a few posters in this thread that seem to see it as an OK act during war.

*and everyone always say "it saved lives". yet there are no stories about foiled plots where torture got the info. Even with Cheney asking for the info to come out. I fail to see how torturing potentially innocent people can be worth the small chance that a trained terrorists will give legit info.

[ezrunner]

Not sure if any of these would work in the given situation but here is some info that may enlighten us. The biggest issue here is how the "prisoners" are classified

Stop Violence Against Women

[Dubdub]

Well, none of us really know what happened since we weren't there or privy to the documents and conversations. So it is still all speculation on our part. No matter who is saying it, its a matter of he said, she said. All of it probably is/was highly classified. Why should we air our dirty laundry in front of our enemies? It only gives them more ammunition and a tougher resolve.

Given that Democrats say one thing and the Republicans another, it is still political and I cannot believe either side of that discussion. The media takes whatever is said as gospel.

And I stand by my comment, if it saved one American life, so be it.

Time to let it rest and move on. I just hope we don't have to hear about this for the next 7+ years or as long as the Democrats are in control.

[dmead]

Torture aside, can you list me one instance of 'rape' that saved anyones life?

Friend or Foe, i will not stand by someone guilty of rape. These accusations are against our friends in the US Armed Forces. That is one of the things i feel is punishable by death.

[Backnblack]

Originally Posted by mriff

So do you really think that we should rape, behead, murder and kill prisoners as we take them under our control?

Why not, Eye for an Eye as they say....

[mriff]

Originally Posted by Backnblack

Why not, Eye for an Eye as they say....

Then you're no better than they are.

[jsconyers]

Originally Posted by Backnblack

Why not, Eye for an Eye as they say....

I think Kathryn did a great job of summing this up earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by kathrynhr

This is a principle issue to me. I wouldn't attempt to speak for every vet, but personally: I didn't serve my country so that the values and ideals I was defending could be violated in this way (by other servicemembers, no less). No matter how another person/nation behaves, we founded this nation on a set of principles that to me are absolutely inviolate. If we set them aside even for a moment, for whatever reason, we lose who we are as a people.