[pretzelb]

Originally Posted by audit

BBM Chat is 100% Secure. Show me a Win Mobile device that has that. I've also crashed Win Mobile devices during security audit's of companies with simple exploits.

I assume that BBM chat is on the BB network and deals with either a BES or BB to BB talk. If not, let me know.

The chat is secure because they encrypt via SSL or something? Is that right? If so, what would prevent the admin of a WinMo device network from doing the same? Wouldn't that be like saying Amazon.com is secure because they use SSL for their transactions, but then ignoring that someone else like NewEgg.com also uses SSL? Or to be more accurate, someone else could use SSL for their website if they really needed to be secure.

The point being, I'm not sure there is a technology advantage that BB has (either hardware or software) that isn't also possible with a WinMo device. If you're a business I think you can set up the same security for your phones in WinMo. It's just a matter of whether or not you chose to.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing either. I can't see the need for it personally, which may mean that it's a feature not meant for someone like me. I had not heard of it before so I do thank you for bringing it up.

[kjjb0204]

Originally Posted by pretzelb

OS stability is something I can understand. But I could counter that the BB OS isn't doing all that much compared some other of the other OS's, which would mean it should totally be more stable.

But phone clarity? Is that really a function of it being RIM / BB? Isn't that totally hardware and carrier? I mean, would I really get better phone clarity with Verizon if they were terrible in my area just by switching from a non smart phone to a BB? It's statements like phone clarity that make me wonder.

By OS stability, I mean that my BB doesn't lock up on me and has no known viruses out there. WinMo can't say the same.

Phone clarity - you said it yourself, it IS the hardware (BB) and carrier. I've had many different phones on Verizon in my area, and by far, the call clarity of my BB is the best. I've had Samsung, Moto and LG phones, and none sound as clear as my BB.

[pretzelb]

Originally Posted by kjjb0204

By OS stability, I mean that my BB doesn't lock up on me and has no known viruses out there. WinMo can't say the same.

Phone clarity - you said it yourself, it IS the hardware (BB) and carrier. I've had many different phones on Verizon in my area, and by far, the call clarity of my BB is the best. I've had Samsung, Moto and LG phones, and none sound as clear as my BB.

Like I said, it's hard to argue stability since from what I've read the BB's don't crash. In under a week, mine did lock up for a long time when I tried to browse a to-do application on the web but it did not require a hard reset. As far as a virus goes, I kind of see that as a function of popularity and usability. The more open something is the more susceptible it becomes to a virus. I'm sure I'm more vulnerable on my home pc with Vista than with Linux but with just some minor care I can avoid it. Then again, if I wanted to write a virus to infect others I'd probably target Vista over Linux just because there are more MSFT machines out there.

But, if you hate crashes then I certainly can see going BB.

For clarity it becomes fuzzy for me. Is RIM really the maker of the hardware? Isn't the hardware, which is the major reason for sound clarity afaik, made by someone else who can also be found in other phones? I honestly don't know.

These days it seems like it's hard to pin a phone to just one company. I would assume even an iPhone has hardware found in other phones and Apple seems the worst at locking things down. I thought I also read the latest touch screen BBs (Storm?) had parts manufactured from some other companies, but maybe I made that up.

[CanuckBB]

Originally Posted by pretzelb

I assume that BBM chat is on the BB network and deals with either a BES or BB to BB talk. If not, let me know.

The chat is secure because they encrypt via SSL or something? Is that right? If so, what would prevent the admin of a WinMo device network from doing the same? Wouldn't that be like saying Amazon.com is secure because they use SSL for their transactions, but then ignoring that someone else like NewEgg.com also uses SSL? Or to be more accurate, someone else could use SSL for their website if they really needed to be secure.

The point being, I'm not sure there is a technology advantage that BB has (either hardware or software) that isn't also possible with a WinMo device. If you're a business I think you can set up the same security for your phones in WinMo. It's just a matter of whether or not you chose to.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing either. I can't see the need for it personally, which may mean that it's a feature not meant for someone like me. I had not heard of it before so I do thank you for bringing it up.

Encryption from end-to-end out of the box, built in to the OS. Sure you can add SSL to some product on a WM device, but if it's an added layer, it can be gotten around.

And for a business, the level of control over the device afforded by BES and IT policies can't be beat.

[pretzelb]

Originally Posted by CanuckBB

Encryption from end-to-end out of the box, built in to the OS. Sure you can add SSL to some product on a WM device, but if it's an added layer, it can be gotten around.

And for a business, the level of control over the device afforded by BES and IT policies can't be beat.

If that's true, I'm not sure it's listed as a feature for every product. From the specification page for various BB phones I keep seeing this about security:

• Support for AES or Triple DES encryption when integrated with BlackBerry® Enterprise Server

This implies to me that the phone can support this encryption if you turn it on - not that it's always there. But I could be reading into it. If it were really always on then it would benefit them to say that and not "support for".

I also think you are incorrect when saying that "adding" encryption is somehow weaker. Logically that makes no sense to me. If the exposure is your data as it crosses from one device to another, then it's impossible for an encrypted stream to be any less secure in between the devices. AFAIK it's binary and the data is either encrypted or it's not. It's not like some extra coat of paint that covers the data which can be peeled off because it was just slapped on. The only way a Win Mobile or any other device could be less secure is if it didn't offer the same encryption strength, which it sounds like they do. And you will note that the BB quote on the topic says it's only included with the BES, meaning you have to have the BES and someone has to turn that feature on, which implies it's not just always there.

Plus, I think this also possible with WinMobile devices. There is a white paper that discusses all the options for WinMobile and AES and Triple DES are on the list. The white paper does seem to point out that version 6+ is required for most of the security options. But, if the main security bullet is AES and Triple DES then it sounds like both are possible and both are added on which would make both hackable.

Also, I am not sure the BES offers anything that can't be done with Windows either, at least from a high level. I think in the MSFT world it's called System Center Mobile Device Manager or MDM. If you think about it, it's not very different than managing computers on a corporate network which has been a feature with Microsoft server products for a while. I may try to dig up a comparison chart to see if there is a feature list comparing the two enterprise solutions.

[takeshi]

Originally Posted by pretzelb

I'm wondering if that is why people stick with their BB (those who aren't forced into a BB due to work) or if there is another reason.

Nope -- reliability is my top reason. All the features in the world don't matter if I can't count on my device.

For some reason RIM's competitor's don't seem to get it. A true "Blackberry killer" needs more than just a qwerty keyboard.

[jbairdjr]

I love the push email, but the overall device reliability does it for me. I have used Palm, Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, and other devices. When I went to the Blackberry platform in 2003, I never looked back.

[StuartV]

What is "reliability"? To me, it means I can leave my phone turned on and use it normally indefinitely. My Motorola RAZR was "reliable".

My Pearl required a battery pull about once a week to keep it running without problems.

My Storm is taking a battery pull at least once a day to work correctly.

I would not classify either of my Blackberries as "reliable".

[StuartV]

Oh, and to answer the OP's question, my reasons for having and keeping a BB are:

- the integration with my Exchange mailbox (i.e. push email AND OTA sync of Contacts and Calendar)

- ease-of-use. WinMo seems to have just as good integration with Exchange. But, I tried a Samsung Omnia (directly comparable to the BB Storm) and the ease-of-use on it was TERRIBLE.

[jbairdjr]

I have used the 8330 since Alltel got the device.
My phone is on all day everyday, as I am on call.
I cant remember the last time I had to pull my battery.
I don't have the storm yet, so I cant speak for that device.

[pretzelb]

Originally Posted by StuartV

What is "reliability"? To me, it means I can leave my phone turned on and use it normally indefinitely. My Motorola RAZR was "reliable".

My Pearl required a battery pull about once a week to keep it running without problems.

My Storm is taking a battery pull at least once a day to work correctly.

I would not classify either of my Blackberries as "reliable".

I usually take "reliable" with a grain of salt. I think for some, one crash per year is horrible. I also think that when people like a product or company they gloss over the bad and may forget some crashes or even blame themselves instead of the product.

It's all what floats your boat. But it does make it hard to separate reality from hype. If I were going on what I read from some people then I could expect every WinMobile phone to require a reset every other day or more. Kind of like how I'm supposed expect my Vista computer to constantly crash and have tons of unfixed bugs as reported by the Apple commercials, yet my parent's Mac seems to crash more.

[pretzelb]

Originally Posted by takeshi

Nope -- reliability is my top reason. All the features in the world don't matter if I can't count on my device.

For some reason RIM's competitor's don't seem to get it. A true "Blackberry killer" needs more than just a qwerty keyboard.

Interesting point. It's like a needs heirarchy really.

For me, I can give up some reliability to have a device with more features. For example, I could probably get a computer device with a rock solid OS to only handle emails that is very reliable. But, for me it's not really worth it unless I can also work on documents and spreadsheets and browse the internet. If that means the OS (and hardware) has to become more unstable then it's worth it.

It's all about what's most important to you I guess.

[unbb]

Originally Posted by pretzelb

You are wrong about the cost being the same, at least for Sprint. To get a BB you must pay $30 a month. For other smart phones except for the Instinct all you need (I think) is a $15 a month data charge added to your line. So in my case, owning a BB costs twice as much per month.

As to what I'm searching for, I suppose I'm trying to understand what I am getting with my Curve that I may not get elsewhere. As this is my first pda / smart phone I have nothing to compare. It does handle email nicely, and the sound clarity is good, but I am not sure it's twice as good at email and sound as something else. I'm not even sure it's exactly the same. I'm not even sure if it does something unique that others cannot.

My bad on the cost, I most recently looked at the other carriers offerings since I have a sprint contract on my one. I'm at the moment torn if I would pay an extra $15/month for a BB over a regular smartphone....on my secondary phone. Main phone I would in a heart beat.

If you want to try other phones, I would be willing to swap my Moto q9c with you temporarily if that helped you find what you want...but I really think you'd stick with your 8330, so is there a reason? Unless the $15/month is something....then a lot of smart phones may be suitable. Don't get me wrong, I loved my moto until I got the BB.

[kdallen]

Originally Posted by pretzelb

You are wrong about the cost being the same, at least for Sprint. To get a BB you must pay $30 a month. For other smart phones except for the Instinct all you need (I think) is a $15 a month data charge added to your line. So in my case, owning a BB costs twice as much per month.

This is minor -- and not to hijack the thread -- but I'm using the same $15 plan I've had for the last 4 (Palm Treo) years on my new Curve with no problems.

[takeshi]

Originally Posted by StuartV

What is "reliability"? To me, it means I can leave my phone turned on and use it normally indefinitely. My Motorola RAZR was "reliable".

My definition is exactly the same. My BB's rarely (a few times a year) need battery pulls. Clearly your experiences have been very different for whatever reasons.

Originally Posted by pretzelb

Interesting point. It's like a needs heirarchy really.

For me, I can give up some reliability to have a device with more features.

Some people are willing to compromise more than others. I have little tolerance for having to deal with issues with my smart phone. I spend a lot of my time resolving other people's PC issues at work and at home. I don't want to do that with my own smart phone and in my experience that has been an issue with Palm and WinMo. YMMV as this thread indicates. I have had significantly less trouble with the various BB's I have owned over the years but I guess I'm also much more familiar with them than anything else which could very well be skewing my experiences.

Some things also require more compromise than others. For example, I'm willing to compromise a bit more on my cars as "fun to drive" is more of a priority but I still expect a good bit of reliability from them. Things do get a bit intertwined as "at the shop" or "waiting by the side of the road for AAA" definitely conflicts with "fun to drive".

Originally Posted by kdallen

This is minor -- and not to hijack the thread -- but I'm using the same $15 plan I've had for the last 4 (Palm Treo) years on my new Curve with no problems.

You're kind of in special niche though. 1. I guess you don't want/need push email, the BB browser, or any other features that require access to the BB APN and 2. You're able to get a $15 data plan to work -- not everyone can.

[StuartV]

Originally Posted by takeshi

My definition is exactly the same. My BB's rarely (a few times a year) need battery pulls. Clearly your experiences have been very different for whatever reasons.

And it seems that your experience is somewhat unusual. As evidenced by the fact that there is a sticky at the top of this very forum titled:

Losing Call Logs, SMS or Emails? Optimize your BB! How To Setup for max free memory!

the gist of which is that BBs have a memory leak and the only resolution is to do a battery pull. I think the "standard" recommendation on this forum is to do a battery pull once a week, just to "avoid problems".

[mrobert]

There is a certain mystery around BB's
It's the definate sign that you are no longer living with your parents

[petphotos]

My first smartphone and the more I use it and learn about it, the more I love it. The Bold is a real quality piece of equipment.

[rugmankc]

I like the the UI compared to other phones I have tried. Haven't used WM phones though. But, with email and calendar it is exceptionally smooth. An example is copy and paste. I do a lot of that when I can't complete a task. The options are all preset to what the next logical step would be. Like copy, select, paste and save are all pre-highlighted when I click through the copy and paste steps. This may be the same on some other phones. But, the ease with which I can do all the email and calendar functions on my 8700g is very satisfying. I would take that phone with multimedia capabilities over any other phone I have used. IMHO



Ken

[fiestito]

I would say the bb OS its good for me, i feel like im in control of the phone not the opposite. Also the price-quality deal was really good for me.
I prefer my pearl 8100 than a Nokia N95, the only thing i miss from the N95 is the gps, for the rest the pearl 8100 its better for me.