[JSanders]

Wirelessly posted (9530; .108 MF231)

Originally Posted by test54

believing in science has nothing at all with being Liberal or Conservative.

Jsanders, you really shouldn't throw stones....if you know the saying.

Oh give it a break. This thread has too much written proof of the intolerance of the evolutionists posting here.
Y'all resort to calling stupid anyone who disagrees with you. You didn't want a debate over this issue, you want to sit around and get all warm and fuzzy with agreements, I guess.
You continually claim your "education" as a superior point demeaning anyone who doesn't fall lockstep with you.
And, as was stated earlier, lol, you gain nothing as it won't matter in the end.

[jsconyers]

Everyone's standing solid behind their beliefs on this subject and it will not change. That seems pretty evident. As I stated before in this thread, I am agnostic. I believe there is a God, I also believe in evolution. I know some of you do not believe that is possible. There are just too many questions that I personally have to fully follow one religion at this point. I'm trying to research multiple religions and beliefs with an open mind. I want to get a better understanding of what each religion and/or belief has to offer before I put my complete faith into it.

Looking at this thread, there are a lot of good points made on both sides. I think now the debate/argument has become too personal. The accusations, personal attacks and so forth are not necessary. I have not posted a lot in this thread, but I have been reading it pretty consistently. I would love for this debate to continue, if it can do so without getting more personal. If not, this thread should probably be closed.

Having said that. If anyone, on any side of the fence, could point me to some good material on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated.

[mriff]

jsconyers, I mentioned a couple of books earlier in this thread. Dr. Sean Carroll is a professor of evolutionary biology at the University of Wisconson - Madison. He has written two widely acclaimed books on evolution. Both for the lay person. Here is a website that you might find useful in choosing one of his books to read.

Carroll lab

I would start with Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo. It's a really good read.

[mriff]

If you want to seriously delve into the debate on evolution/creationism, then this website is very good.

TalkOrigins Archive: Exploring the Creation/Evolution Controversy

[jsconyers]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will definitely give those a look.

Anyone that is opposed to Evolution have any good material?

[JSanders]

The thread was settled well enough in the first few posts as to the varying points on evolution. The rest, as was stated earlier is mostly "meaningless" and "gibberish."

Originally Posted by jsconyers

I'm trying to research multiple religions and beliefs with an open mind. I want to get a better understanding of what each religion and/or belief has to offer before I put my complete faith into it.

What is your goal: To feel good now, find a manner of worship, or ensure yourself for eternity? Decide what you want, I guess, first. My beliefs were instilled in me as a young man, and have grown more completely understood as I got older. So I never shopped around. Knowing there is the one true God who accepts and loves me as I am and wants me to be with Him now and forever satisfies my soul.

[mriff]

If anybody cares to read, I think this is a very nice concise summary of ideas on evolution/creationism.

An Introduction to the Evolution versus Creation Debate

[mriff]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

Thanks for the suggestions, I will definitely give those a look.

Anyone that is opposed to Evolution have any good material?

This is generally considered the most widely recognized website which attempts to refute the Theory of Evolution:

Discovery Institute

[jsconyers]

I would say my goal is all three options you've given. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fully putting your faith into something fulfills all of those. Eternity is a scary thing to fathom for me personally. I don't know if that's a reason I have a hard time grasping onto a religion or not.

I've grown up going to church and believing in Christ. My mother has always been a firm believer. I got away from it in my late teenage years and haven't ever got back into it. I respect the fact that you and many others can put your faith whole-heartedly into something. I would love to have that in my life at one point.

I will continue to view the differences and get feedback/input from believers of all beliefs. It is hard to do at times as some people try to push their religion on you as the only option. That tends to push me away a lot of the times.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by mriff

If anybody cares to read, I think this is a very nice concise summary of ideas on evolution/creationism.

An Introduction to the Evolution versus Creation Debate

For those that didn't open the link and read, I wanted to post just one paragraph of the article. It's a very good point in the debate. At least I think it is. Evolutionary biologists are on a quest for truth through discovery, just as any other scientist. And yet, they are vilified by some for even being interested in this path of scientific work.

This short introductory article to the debate is one of the best I've read.

Evolution is no more atheistic than is medicine. Practitioners in both fields exclude supernatural interventions from their explanations of the phenomena they investigate. For example, you wouldn't expect your doctor to say, "We don't need to research your disease because we believe it's the result of a curse from God, so your only treatment is repentance." Just because medicine excludes supernatural explanations as a matter of method, it does not follow that medicine is therefore committed to atheism. Medical doctors are not being inconsistent when they both believe in God, and practice medicine under the working assumption that God has not jumped in to manipulate natural laws in order to create a disease or other medical phenomena. Similarly, evolutionary science also excludes supernatural explanations as a matter of method, but again, this is not equivalent to saying that evolutionists are committed to atheism. What medicine and evolution (and all the sciences) are saying is that direct intervention by God, or other supernatural beings, is assumed to be unnecessary in explaining the phenomena they investigate.

[jsconyers]

To bring some humor to this thread...

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

[Lucius J. Belmont]

Fantastic quote, Mriff. It's amazing to me how people who don't believe in evolution still tend to have a full medicine cabinet of science-based medicines. It's like that scene in Life of Bryan...What did the Romans ever do for us, besides the roads, the aquaducts, the roads, the wine, the medicine, the irrigation, public safety...what did science ever do for us, anyway?

Anyway, it seems a moot point. There are way too many creation stories to teach them all, buffet-style. Just teach what science backs up and leave individual religion-customised teaching to the parents, where it should be. If your kids are learning their beliefs strictly from school, you're probably doing the parenting thing wrong anyway.

[mriff]

Salient points all, LJB!

[mriff]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

To bring some humor to this thread...

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

Very funny! Although the not so funny part is that if you actually asked Chuck Norris if evolution should be taught in public school, I think the answer would surprise you.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by Lucius J. Belmont

Fantastic quote, Mriff. It's amazing to me how people who don't believe in evolution still tend to have a full medicine cabinet of science-based medicines. It's like that scene in Life of Bryan...What did the Romans ever do for us, besides the roads, the aquaducts, the roads, the wine, the medicine, the irrigation, public safety...what did science ever do for us, anyway?

Anyway, it seems a moot point. There are way too many creation stories to teach them all, buffet-style. Just teach what science backs up and leave individual religion-customised teaching to the parents, where it should be. If your kids are learning their beliefs strictly from school, you're probably doing the parenting thing wrong anyway.

I never said I didnt believe in science. I believe science is just discovering what God has allowed them to discover. I have met many Christian Surgeons that always pray that God guide thier hands as they open the patient up. Most of my fathers doctors were Christian doctors. They also said when they couldnt do any more that it was in Gods hands now.

[mriff]

Originally Posted by Dawg

I never said I didnt believe in science. I believe science is just discovering what God has allowed them to discover. I have met many Christian Surgeons that always pray that God guide thier hands as they open the patient up. Most of my fathers doctors were Christian doctors. They also said when they couldnt do any more that it was in Gods hands now.

Dawg, that's just the point I was trying to make earlier (see post 210). You trust that the doctors you rely on have studied all the latest science and that they know it well. That they have built their practice on an ever explanding and accepted body of knowlegde of medicine. You trust other branches of science. But when it comes to biologists, they are not afforded the same status. They are not believed, sometimes at all. As a matter of fact, they are attacked for what they choose to study, especially those doctors and scientists who study evolutionary biology. I don't think you can choose which science is convenient to accept. At least I can't. I would encourage you to carefully read the article that I quoted in the post above. I would be very interested to get your thoughts on it.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by mriff

Dawg, that's just the point I was trying to make earlier (see post 210). You trust that the doctors you rely on have studied all the latest science and that they know it well. That they have built their practice on an ever explanding and accepted body of knowlegde of medicine. You trust other branches of science. But when it comes to biologists, they are not afforded the same status. They are not believed, sometimes at all. As a matter of fact, they are attacked for what they choose to study, especially those doctors and scientists who study evolutionary biology. I don't think you can choose which science is convenient to accept. At least I can't. I would encourage you to carefully read the article that I quoted in the post above. I would be very interested to get your thoughts on it.

evolution is a theory and until it is proven with out one splinter of doubt it will be just that a theory. I chose proven science that to me was given by God. Not discovered by man because with out God there can be no discovery

[djm2]

Originally Posted by Dawg

evolution is a theory and until it is proven with out one splinter of doubt it will be just that a theory. I chose proven science that to me was given by God. Not discovered by man because with out God there can be no discovery

I just had a revelation from God who told me that Darwin was right and that he (Darwin) would never have figured out the beauty of evolution without divine intervention. Dawg, he wants you to start believing -- NOW!

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by djm2

I just had a revelation from God who told me that Darwin was right and that he (Darwin) would never have figured out the beauty of evolution without divine intervention. Dawg, he wants you to start believing -- NOW!

He also warns of false prophets.

[Lucius J. Belmont]

I could prove it pretty easily. Look at my dog; he's not a wolf, and God didn't change him from one. Selective breeding by humans put artificial evolutionary pressures on a subset of his species until he became something very different. I'd be willing to believe God inspired this, at least the non-cruel selective breedings (pugs are an abomination, I don't care what they say), but it certainly happened, over time, in a very real and not-in-the-least supernatural manner; my bed isn't full of wolves, though genetically it'd be hard to tell. Look at my bloodred morph cornsnake; they don't exist in the wild, man made them because they're pretty in ways that nature would never select for, they stand out too much and would become prey. They had the potential for all these bright colours and patterns, which is a fascinating, amazing, beautiful thing, but the pressures of reproducing and surviving optimised them for their practical surroundings. The forces that change things over time (ding, change over time, evolution) exist, that's all there is to it. It's like that famous experiment, breed foxes for ten or so generations and you almost get a different animal based on what humans, acting in place of nature, selects for. You can't work in animal husbandry at all without realising this. If a human breeder can do it in ten generations or less, think how much change the substantial power of nature has enforced over millions of years? Or even six thousand, if you want to defenestrate another innocent branch of science. Poor geology. *tear* The principles behind evolution are real forces that can be modified into a tool of humankind as much as fire or hammers. No one thinks hammers are a theory.

I think the idea that everything is filled with the potential for something else is amazing and fantastic. I can take drab animals and make works of art; nature could take my foofy creations and revert them to something that survives a natural state, optimised better than man ever could manage. There's so much more at work here than than unexplained "Poof! God made it!" like fairytale magic, reality is so intricate, how could a believer -not- think it's the work of God? Reality is a miracle and people would swap it for the folklore of primitive generations...that makes me really sad, no matter how beautiful and allegorical the stories are.