[birddog]

Originally Posted by penguin3107

This entire analogy is off the mark.
Wipers not working on a car would be more equivalent to your 8830 not being able to vibrate when a phone call comes in.
That would be an advertised feature, which is broken.

For the nth time... Verizon never advertised the 8830 as having GPS navigation features.
Your analogy would work better if they did.

Your right.. The analogy would have been better if I had discussed a leased car. And it was the leasing company that:
1. Broke the windshield wipers
2. Claimed that their advertisements for the car did not mention working windshield wipers (even though they advertised a car that everyone knows comes from the manufacture w/ wipers)
3. Said they would provide the "clean windshield" system for an additional $10/month.

This is pretty close to what VZW is doing with the RIM product.

[aiharkness]

Wirelessly posted (8700g: BlackBerry8700/4.1.0 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/100)

birddog, I think where your analogy and the others fail at the outset is they don't account for the carrier's service being joined at the hip to the handheld. You can't deal with the two independently and deal with only the handheld (the car) and ignore the service, which the carrier is defining in their particular (or peculiar) way. At least that's my read on it.

[RoC1909]

I say 'TOUGH'! The consumer should have done their homework before buying the device. Nowhere on the VZ website does it say that this device has GPS functionality. IT even states on Blackberry.com that that this device might have the GPS enabled OR disabled depending on the carrier. How much CLEARER does it need to be??

When are people going to be held accountable for their actions whether it be 'reading the fine print' or doing their own research?? .

Funny, WHERE on this webpage does it say that this unit has GPS??

VZ 8830 Stats

[RoC1909]

Originally Posted by birddog

I thought it was an interesting point...

When you purchase a home, if there is a stove or refrigerator in the home, it should work unless the condition is explicitly stated "as is".

Once I got a riding lawnmower with a home purchase. It was left in the garage in the house when everything else but the appliances had been removed. The appliances were included.

While we were doing the final walk through before the closing, the owner showed up with his truck to take it away. I said "no way" -- my assumption was it was included, just like the other appliances, since all other not included property had been removed. I told them I would walk without it because they were not selling the home as shown, my lawyer agreed with me that it was a reasonable expectation and I could walk without penalty if it wasn't included.
The seller caved and included the $700 riding mower.

And you are so 'happy' getting over on the system?!?! And this right here folks is a MAJOR reason why our dumbass society is so litigious!! Everyone expects SOMETHING for NOTHING!

[Firefishe2]

Originally Posted by RoC1909

And you are so 'happy' getting over on the system?!?! And this right here folks is a MAJOR reason why our dumbass society is so litigious!! Everyone expects SOMETHING for NOTHING!

Hello birddog, Firefishe replying:

First, I would like to say I enjoy reading your replies, they're very informative. However, I do feel the need to point out that the Global Positioning System (GPS) capability of the BlackBerry 8830 is not something extra, it's an inherent part of the phone's capability.

It does not require a triangulation signal from the cell towers--although that *would* be ideal--to function. That is why it is called "Autonomous GPS." When autonomous gps is paired with cell tower triangulation schemes, it is referred to as "A-GPS," which stands for "Assisted GPS."

A-GPS is the wave of the future for gps/cell phone integration programs. It provides faster satellite acquisition times and makes navigating in congested cities possible, especially inside steel and glass buildings, parking garages, and other solid, RF-absorbing structures.

Research In Motion (RIM) has already stated that the BlackBerry 8830 has an autonomous gps, capable of receiving gps satellite signals, and that it does not require the use of an Assisted-GPS system to function. So why are we all upset?

Because Verizon has chosen to disable--at a very low firmware (software-on-chip) level--a feature that is not anything extra, at all! The 8830 has an active gps receiver. Not perhaps as sensitive as the SiRF III gps chip in the 8800, but still capable of stand-alone gps signal reception nonetheless.

To disable the "mere receiving" of gps satellite signals, then cite "...we did it for security issues..." is pleading ignorance. To say that the 8830's ability to receive satellite signals would cause network interference doesn't make technical sense. Each 8830 has the same capability. Unless Verizon chooses to implement some type of Assisted GPS (A-GPS) scheme, no type of gps signals whatsoever would be sent over the network.

Unless Verizon is using each and every BlackBerry 8830 owner's stand-alone, autonomous gps signal in some type of heretofore unknown Peer-To-Peer (P2P) networking scheme (like BitTorrent or Napster), there isn't any possibility of Verizon's--or any other CDMA carrier's--network of receiving interference from anyone using the BlackBerry 8830. It just doesn't happen! It can't happen! It's technically impossible.

Cell phones must be certified by the Federal Communications Commission in the United States, as they are a Radio Frequency (RF) Generating Device. They have to meet very strict requirements for generating interference and being able to accept interference. They also have to meet certain standards for cellular data communications protocols, such as TCP/IP.

The entire shebang is usually done via the manufacturer's compliance with standards agreed upon by the Cellular Telephone Industry Association (CTIA), which certifies cellular phone's for use in a wide variety of domestic and international markets.

Manufacturers also have their own standards. As it happens, Qualcomm helped spearhead the CDMA (Code Division Multiple Access) Cellular Technology Program, which Verizon uses, so I don't see why Verizon would have any difficulty whatsoever in implementing any type of A-GPS technology, as the 8830 is, indeed, a Qualcomm device. It says "Qualcomm 3G CDMA" right on the back of the 8830's battery cover.

They may, or may not, be liable for disabling yet another "Inherent Feature" of yet another one of their cell phone offerings.

I remember reading about Verizon receiving a class-action lawsuit (which takes time to prepare litigation for, requires a certain number of people, etc.) regarding the crippling of a certain Bluetooth File Sending feature.

These type of legal proceedings cost a lot of money, and can set even a multi-billion-dollar company back a piece, especially if said litigation causes production to cease, or prohibits a company from adopting a certain phone--like the 8830, for example.

Let's say Company A wanted to adopt the 8830 as part of their cell phone offerings, knew it would be a huge profit maker, and then were told suddenly by a Court of Law that they couldn't go to production unless certain changes in the software were made, because of a class-action lawsuit having been filed by thousands of grievious customers who felt duped because a feature inherent to the phone had been crippled for no decent reason.

Verizon hasn't even stated why the feature was disabled. I mean, if they had come out earlier and stated why they had done so, shared some of their technical information with the BlackBerry community-at-large, especially those who are their customers, and allowed some of us to help them and be part of their development process for the 8830's deployment, then this wouldn't even be an issue.

Why the same company would risk another lawsuit isn't beyond me, either. It's easy for people to fall back into old, destructive patterns. What has probably happened is, after the initial lawsuit was settled, the same developers, programmers, and executives fell back on their haunches, desiring to "forget the past and move forward."

The problem with this rationale is that we, as fallible human beings, need to learn from our past mistakes, remembering what happened the first time around, and then using that memory to curb mistakes that were made under similar circumstances.

I don't think Verizon remembers well enough the first mistake with Bluetooth File Transfer. I feel that they may be making the same mistake with disabling autonomous gps reception in the BlackBerry 8830.

I hope this has been informative to you.

Warm regards,
Firefishe

[JGBerry]

it's not a "Qualcomm" device per se. Qualcomm just makes the chip sets (which it does for almost all CDMA phones). Qualcomm owns almost all patents on CDMA technology and companies have long ago given up on trying to avoid using their chip sets and technology. Heck, Nokia tried for a while to avoid Qualcomm's chip sets but eventually they realized they couldn't in a cost effective way, and they did an analysis and decided to pull out of the CDMA market all together. Now, they sub-contract their CDMA phones to a company called Pantech.

A while back, if you remember, there were cell phones actually made by Qualcomm , however, as a company, it could not keep up with the fast paced business of cell phone design and manufacturing. it's a very intense industry currently, with high model turnover. there is tremendous competition coupled with very detail oriented design. cell phone manufacturers rely heavily on industrial design capabilities, customer usability research, and tight tolerance manufacturing. Qualcomm, as a company, realized it would be more profitable and more practical to stick with making chip sets. it has TONS of patents to fall back on profit wise obviously.

if you don't believe me, just check in with your local six sigma training group and ask them about Qualcomm and the six sigma analysis done for them

[ndub33]

This probably bugs me more than it should, as I am not a Verizon customer, nor do I have any plans to be. But it certainly does nothing to dispell the perception that they are revenue vampires who have little regard for the best interests of their customers.

[dc/dc]

Where are we going for beer is my question...

I don't care what VZW does because I won't be using them until they go UMTS/HSDPA.

[tgeekb]

All I know is that I will never be a verizon customer. I left them years ago because of poor customer service and I am very happy in the GSM world.