[Fungineer]

Originally Posted by birddog

It just amazes me that BB does not have a respectable 3G phone yet. If they don't announce one soon (my current contract ends next month) -- I won't be a BB user for long.

What in the world are they waiting for?!

Probably a number of things - first, for WCDMA radios to become small enough to fit in their latest designs (the 8707 is bursting at the seams if you've ever seen a tear-down), second - for the power performance of the WCDMA radio to become good enough that they won't have to ship their products with two "extended life" batteries just to make them useful, a la Blackjack.
And just speculating but also probably third, waiting for a new generation of processor that will allow them to actually *do* something with the data that they get from the network. The current 312MHz XScale processor in their EDGE devices seems to be hitting a wall for performance, if comments littered on this forum are any indication. Given that the whole business units for these processors just got sold from Intel to Marvell, maybe their plans went arwy.

all said and done, RIM *has* made a 3G phone that they are selling (8707), just not one for the north american market, and that is either because they don't have enough demand (from their customers - the CARRIERS), or because there are technological hurdles they are working to address. If/when it is released you can bet your ass that it is going to blow the existing stuff out of the water.

[birddog]

Originally Posted by Dubdub

Well I guess the question is do we really need 3 G on a BB? It won't affect email that much if any. You will see some speed increase in browsing, but surfing speed really depends on the connection, the processor and available memory. I don't see RIM doing anything revolutionary in those categories anytime soon.

Plus government and business is a dedicated market segment and email is the primary application, along with phone calendar and contact info. I would guess surfing is secondary - I know it is for me.

I agree.. I don't surf that much, but when I do, it is painful! And while I could live without it now, I keep these things for about 2 years, If I get an 8300 now, without 3G, will I be kicking myself a year from now?

Originally Posted by Dubdub

Given that, I really can live without 3 G, and a camera for that matter. A better calendar and address book, and embedded GPS, now those are some apps I'd really like to see.

Yup, I don't care about the camera either, and yes GPS would be very nice. Right now, the choice between the the small and light 8300 and the 8800 w/ GPS is a very tough one! Though I am leaning toward the treo because of 3G.

[birddog]

Originally Posted by Fungineer

Probably a number of things - first, for WCDMA radios to become small enough to fit in their latest designs (the 8707 is bursting at the seams if you've ever seen a tear-down), second - for the power performance of the WCDMA radio to become good enough that they won't have to ship their products with two "extended life" batteries just to make them useful, a la Blackjack.
And just speculating but also probably third, waiting for a new generation of processor that will allow them to actually *do* something with the data that they get from the network. The current 312MHz XScale processor in their EDGE devices seems to be hitting a wall for performance, if comments littered on this forum are any indication. Given that the whole business units for these processors just got sold from Intel to Marvell, maybe their plans went arwy.

all said and done, RIM *has* made a 3G phone that they are selling (8707), just not one for the north american market, and that is either because they don't have enough demand (from their customers - the CARRIERS), or because there are technological hurdles they are working to address. If/when it is released you can bet your ass that it is going to blow the existing stuff out of the water.

Yup, all good reasons. It reminds me a lot of Ken Olson, the engineer who founded Digital Equipment Corporation. His customers assured him that they were not interested in desktop PCs and Ken missed the home PC market entirely. All of his decisions seemed sound at the time, he was a conservative businessman that did not take risks -- and he missed the PC market altogether which eventually cost him his empire.

Ken Olsen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I fear that Rim is missing the boat in a big way -- all for good reason.

[takeshi]

IMO, I doubt that will happen. There are plenty of other unstable 3G devices with horrid battery life if that's what you're looking for. The rest of us have work or other things to do and need a reliable device.

Do the sales numbers really support your fear that the masses are jumping ship because the current and near term release BB's don't have 3G?

RIM is at a tricky point where they're trying to keep their traditional user base in mind any still expand to the more general consumer market at the same time. I don't suspect that there's really that much demand for 3G among the general consumer user base at this point. This might change in the future, of course, but in talking to Pearl users (admittedly anecdotal evidence) I've never heard them clamor for 3G except on these forums and other similar sites like Pinstack and HoFo which don't represent that general consumer user base at all. Those/us tech geeks really make up a tiny tiny percentage of the market, despite what their overinflated sense of self might tell them. ;) Yes, the corporate market could benefit from 3G but again, in looking at our several hundred deployed BB's, no one uses them for anything other than email and voice calls -- even in our own IT department. I can't say that we represent the entire corporate market but I would seriously suspect that it's mostly the same out there.

I'd personally much rather see RIM stick to keeping stability and battery life as priorities. There's already enough griping about battery life on the 8800 as it is, for one. As has already been stated, without a better combo of processor, OS, etc 3G on a BB is pretty much a moot point anyway unless you're just planning on tethering. It also doesn't help that the carriers are really still at an early stage in deploying 3G anyway (what good is a 3G device if you're always falling back on EDGE?).

Anyway, a good number of us choose the Blackberry for its deserved reputation for stability even though we recognize that we have to make compromises in other areas (but this is something that clearly delineates BB from the thousands of wannabe "Blackberry killer"s out there). RIM is closing the gap but this takes time. It's not an overnight change. We'll see 3G in good time when the Blackberries are ready for it. If you can't wait, then by all means go the Treo or WM route. We'll probably see you again down the road like many others that have been distracted by the shiny-ness. If not, then you've found the device for your needs/wants.

My take on the matter is that the worst case is that RIM loses its footing in the consumer market but it's not like they had a majority share anyway. Their corporate base is pretty stable for the most part assuming that they don't do something really stupid but I don't think taking the time to properly roll out 3G really qualifies. Unless the geeks can influence either of those two major groups we're only going to see whining about the lack of 3G on these forum sites and on tech blogs.

[woodi68]

I'm not sure if this is accurate, but isn't CDMA 3G? Isn't that Verizon/Sprint?

[TheBigNewt]

Originally Posted by woodi68

I'm not sure if this is accurate, but isn't CDMA 3G? Isn't that Verizon/Sprint?

That is correct. And I assume when VZN gets the pearl or newer BB device they will be connected to the 3G network, because that's the only network they have. So BB users will probably have access to 3G in the near future via Verizon (hate 'em).

[woodi68]

Originally Posted by TheBigNewt

That is correct. And I assume when VZN gets the pearl or newer BB device they will be connected to the 3G network, because that's the only network they have. So BB users will probably have access to 3G in the near future via Verizon (hate 'em).

Well, I do LOVE my VZW 7130e, but it's old! I'm going to sacrafice the amazing speeds I've grown to love for the 8300.

The reason CDMA has been so important to me is that I have a 1 hours commute via train to work. Therefore I tether my laptop into work and can be productive the entire time. When I used to do this via Cingular it was nearly impossible. Begrudgingly I'll have to switch back to Cingular solely for the newer devices (is that vane?). I pray for 3G via AT&T since they keep advertising "Cingular has now joined forces with the larges broadband provider". I suppose this is right up there (for me) with "Fewest dropped calls". I'm not bitter.

[archer6]

Originally Posted by takeshi

Anyway, a good number of us choose the Blackberry for its deserved reputation for stability even though we recognize that we have to make compromises in other areas (but this is something that clearly delineates BB from the thousands of wannabe "Blackberry killer"s out there). RIM is closing the gap but this takes time. It's not an overnight change. We'll see 3G in good time when the Blackberries are ready for it.

Unless the geeks can influence either of those two major groups we're only going to see whining about the lack of 3G on these forum sites and on tech blogs.

Thanks takeshi, for the great read!

You have brought up some very thought provoking issues and I enjoyed hearing your viewpoint. I concur, the real key and centerpiece of the BB platform is it's Stability, Reliability, and Security. Everything else is, and should be, a secondary consideration, within reason of course.

After all it's the gradual incremental improvements and advancements that RIM is so good at incorporating in the device without "upsetting the apple cart".

At the end of the day, it's about having a device that "just works" and this is where RIM and the BlackBerry platform are the clear winners.

Cheers...

[birddog]

Originally Posted by archer6

I concur, the real key and centerpiece of the BB platform is it's Stability, Reliability, and Security. Everything else is, and should be, a secondary consideration, within reason of course.

After all it's the gradual incremental improvements and advancements that RIM is so good at incorporating in the device without "upsetting the apple cart".

At the end of the day, it's about having a device that "just works" and this is where RIM and the BlackBerry platform are the clear winners.

Cheers...

I'm sure the VMS advocates were telling Ken Olson the same thing.
"Ignore the desktop toys", "Support your current VMS corporate clients."

And VMS was a rock solid OS, "Stability, Reliability, and Security" all very very good features of VMS. And guess what, most of his corporate clients (the same ones that demanded these things, which prevented him from investing in newer technologies) eventually jumped ship because VMS was outdated.

Just something to think about.

[birddog]

Originally Posted by takeshi

Do the sales numbers really support your fear that the masses are jumping ship because the current and near term release BB's don't have 3G?

I have no idea.. these are just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by takeshi

RIM is at a tricky point where they're trying to keep their traditional user base in mind any still expand to the more general consumer market at the same time.

Tricky: yes.. Unique: no

DEC, Microsoft, Sun (and many other companies) face the same challenge: support current customers, make everthing backward compatible, while investing in new technologies. Sun has a unique approach, they support their old stuff, butnew features are not supported; customers need to upgrade to get the cool new stuff.

[baccess]

Originally Posted by Dubdub

Well I guess the question is do we really need 3 G on a BB?

Tethering.

Most people probably don't need it.

Tethering with the phone is typically easier to deploy and less expensive than PC cards.

[birddog]

Originally Posted by baccess

Tethering.

Most people probably don't need it.

Tethering with the phone is typically easier to deploy and less expensive than PC cards.

This is another reason why I am leaning toward a treo.. I want tethering.
The treo also allows you to teather using Bluetooth (when you don't want to mess with cables) or USB when you need to extra speed.

[Fungineer]

Originally Posted by birddog

The treo also allows you to teather using Bluetooth (when you don't want to mess with cables) or USB when you need to extra speed.

BB supports both USB and BT tethering, though the BT link isn't that great, esp if you are getting EVDO over the link.

I sincerely doubt that RIM is just sitting on their laurels and ignoring the end-user demand for HSDPA, but so far there have been no rumors to support their development of one. Eventually at the very least they have to upgrade / replace the 8707 line of phones, so likely they won't bother with just a single-band device, but rather a dual or tri-band UMTS and sell that globally. we shall wait and see.

Right now I'm happy with my Pearl, and until there is a UMTS replacement for it I don't see a need to change (except maybe for this fabled 8120).

[longhornalex]

Another version of the 8300 will come out a few months after the Iphone and have 3g and GPS. This comes from an extremely reliable source.

[tankee531]

3G has the advantage of being able to roam to Japan & South Korea. Unfortunately it does eats up battery faster than EDGE.

[Perfect Storm]

Originally Posted by longhornalex

Another version of the 8300 will come out a few months after the Iphone and have 3g and GPS. This comes from an extremely reliable source.

Yup...sure...I'll believe it when I see it

[takeshi]

Originally Posted by longhornalex

Another version of the 8300 will come out a few months after the Iphone and have 3g and GPS. This comes from an extremely reliable source.

Perhaps "another 83xx". The 8300 does not have WiFi nor GPS and it won't in the future. "An 8300 with WiFi and GPS" will have its own unique model number.

Originally Posted by birddog

DEC, Microsoft, Sun (and many other companies) face the same challenge: support current customers, make everthing backward compatible, while investing in new technologies.

I can see how you'd get to that comparison but it's really of limited application to RIM, IMO. Really, though, only time will tell... Many many "Blackberry killers" have come and gone over the years and I don't think that they've simply failed because of a lack of 3G. In any case, you have to shop based on your personal priorities. If you think it's a must-have then by all means get a device that includes it.

Originally Posted by birddog

And guess what, most of his corporate clients (the same ones that demanded these things, which prevented him from investing in newer technologies) eventually jumped ship because VMS was outdated.

But you're making the assumption that RIM isn't working on adding new features to their Blackberries. The Pearl, the 8800, and the Curve really don't support that assertion if you consider that features on those devices weren't available on prior models. Most changes are evolutionary. Again, IMO your comparison has some valid points of basis but it's of limited use when you dig further.

[hookem12387]

It's a fairly well known fact that the iphone is limited to EDGE