[Boy Genius]

Both of those points are completely valid and correct. Thank everything that knowledgeable smart people do exist in this world

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by boygenius

Your VERY wrong. Do you know how many government agencies use microsoft/palm products? They simply get one without a camera. Just because ford makes aston martins doesn't mean you feel like a cheap ass when you buy one right? There is NO security checkpoint I have ever seen that allows devices in just by saying OH its BLACKBERRY. They still CHECK the device. SO your completely wrong in that regards...I say gimme a friggin camera...NOW.

I'm not actually wrong. I work for the government as a contractor. Out of the 20+ Air Force bases and 10+ State Department sites (including sites that require security clearance) on which I have set foot in the last 3 years, I have only seen 1, ONE, UNO site that was using something other than BlackBerry.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I know what I'm talking about. Typically, if a government employee has a BlackBerry, they wear it on their waist in the stock holster. A security guard can glance at it, see it is a BlackBerry, and know for a fact that it does not have a camera because NO BlackBerry has a camera. As soon as a model is introduced with a camera, sites will ban ALL BlackBerry devices because they do not have the time to check if it has a camera or not. That's how the government works. Right or wrong, it's done in the name of efficiency.

If you want a PDA with a camera, buy a Windows Mobile or Palm device.

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by ntjones

Yea, I kind of wondered that myself. It was mentioned above that blackberrys are ok coming through the security checkpoint. So, they must have to actually look at it to know its a blackberry right? How much longer would it take to make sure that blackberry doesn't have a camera? An extra second or two?

Sure, it would only take two seconds, but that is simply not how the government works.

[ntjones]

Originally Posted by dc/dc

If you want a PDA with a camera, buy a Windows Mobile or Palm device.

Sir, you are still missing the point. Using your argument, I can say "If you want email-on-the-go, then carry a laptop and a cell phone that can be used as a modem." Why do I have to sacrifice something?? Again I ask, why should the feds, or any other company that doesn't want a camera, be allowed to dictate the future of the BB? They shouldn't and won't.

I love my BB. Its email capabilities are unmatched by any other mobile device, at least the ones I have seen. But... I can guarantee you, that that will not last forever. Such is the way of things in business, especially in the electronics world. RIM knows they have to innovate to compete.

I'm sorry, I still feel that the "I'm leaving you if you add a camera, memory card, etc" are very overblown. It's a lot of talk and threats, nothing more. In your case, with the security issue, I think it will just amount to some additional checks at the gate, just like all the changes at the airports after 9/11. We'll deal with it and move on.

[hnsimpson]

The innovation and evolution of the Blackberry device is key to its survival, I believe.

If RIM does not develop new technology and expand the Blackberry line then will be the reason to have one when the other devices develop their email to equal or better BBerry?

Simpson

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by ntjones

Sir, you are still missing the point. Using your argument, I can say "If you want email-on-the-go, then carry a laptop and a cell phone that can be used as a modem." Why do I have to sacrifice something?? Again I ask, why should the feds, or any other company that doesn't want a camera, be allowed to dictate the future of the BB? They shouldn't and won't.

I love my BB. Its email capabilities are unmatched by any other mobile device, at least the ones I have seen. But... I can guarantee you, that that will not last forever. Such is the way of things in business, especially in the electronics world. RIM knows they have to innovate to compete.

I'm sorry, I still feel that the "I'm leaving you if you add a camera, memory card, etc" are very overblown. It's a lot of talk and threats, nothing more. In your case, with the security issue, I think it will just amount to some additional checks at the gate, just like all the changes at the airports after 9/11. We'll deal with it and move on.

You might be right.

[ntjones]

Originally Posted by hnsimpson

The innovation and evolution of the Blackberry device is key to its survival, I believe.

If RIM does not develop new technology and expand the Blackberry line then will be the reason to have one when the other devices develop their email to equal or better BBerry?

Simpson

I agree. And its bound to happen sooner rather than later.

Originally Posted by dc/dc

You might be right.

And I might be wrong. It's happened a few times!

[blkberryboy]

Gizmodo.com is reporting it has been delayed....again

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/smart...ain-163271.php

Too bad, I guess this debate wont be halted for another month.

[Boy Genius]

It might be delayed who knows really. As far as I know April is definatly looking good and I have no other information that says otherwise. The hardware and ftware are all production. It is just about getting the devices made fast enough. There is a very goo chance that everything is ready to go and they are waiting on the green light. My guess is that it wll be announced on verizon first week of april.

[Boy Genius]

Originally Posted by dc/dc

I'm not actually wrong. I work for the government as a contractor. Out of the 20+ Air Force bases and 10+ State Department sites (including sites that require security clearance) on which I have set foot in the last 3 years, I have only seen 1, ONE, UNO site that was using something other than BlackBerry.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I know what I'm talking about. Typically, if a government employee has a BlackBerry, they wear it on their waist in the stock holster. A security guard can glance at it, see it is a BlackBerry, and know for a fact that it does not have a camera because NO BlackBerry has a camera. As soon as a model is introduced with a camera, sites will ban ALL BlackBerry devices because they do not have the time to check if it has a camera or not. That's how the government works. Right or wrong, it's done in the name of efficiency.

If you want a PDA with a camera, buy a Windows Mobile or Palm device.

Sorry to beat a dead horse to death but after reading back, I have one simple question for you...blackberry comes out with a blackberry with camera...WHAT DEVICE WILL YOUR "GOVERNMENT" USE??? I am very doubtful that they will ban EVERY EMAIL DEVICE ON THE PLANET. Because blackberry is the only brand that doesn't have cameras...can you use a treo without a camera? NOPE because they make one with a camera...can you use an HP 6510, NOPE because they make one with a camera...I guess your stuck with carrying a laptop then...oops wait, Sony makes one with an integrated camera...BAN ALL SONY PRODUCTS AND LAPTOPS!!!!!

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by boygenius

Sorry to beat a dead horse to death but after reading back, I have one simple question for you...blackberry comes out with a blackberry with camera...WHAT DEVICE WILL YOUR "GOVERNMENT" USE??? I am very doubtful that they will ban EVERY EMAIL DEVICE ON THE PLANET. Because blackberry is the only brand that doesn't have cameras...can you use a treo without a camera? NOPE because they make one with a camera...can you use an HP 6510, NOPE because they make one with a camera...I guess your stuck with carrying a laptop then...oops wait, Sony makes one with an integrated camera...BAN ALL SONY PRODUCTS AND LAPTOPS!!!!!

What will happen is no devices will be allowed into the secured facilities (which is most government facilities). There are some that already do this, and any entrant must hand over their device to the guard, and it is locked into locker. Some sites also say no radio devices unless it has a sticker indicating that it is government issue.

Granted, I break the rules all the time as most of my phones (excluding my BlackBerry) have cameras. I simply put them in my pocket, put them on vibrate, and don't answer if I am in a serious lockdown area.

I know that all of these concepts are hard for people who do not work with the government to understand, but it is just the way it is. One thing you can be assured of is that no government agency will issue a BlackBerry with a camera to their users, just as they don't issue phones or laptops with cameras to their users.

Now, having said all that, not all government agencies are alike, and not even all sites within an agency are alike. Some sites enact very stringent rules, and some sites don't enforce any rules. It all depends.

[Boy Genius]

[QUOTE=dc/dc] One thing you can be assured of is that no government agency will issue a BlackBerry with a camera to their users, just as they don't issue phones or laptops with cameras to their users. [QUOTE]

Right that is completely understandable

Here is your previous post I am responding to...

[QUOTE=dc/dc] The United States Federal Government is the single largest customer of BlackBerry handheld devices in the world. If I camera is installed in them, RIM will likely lose the federal government as a customer. So no, they won't gain more than they lose. Sorry. [QUOTE]

I just doubt like you said earlier the ENTIRE goverment will drop RIM because one of the devices out of 20 they offer contains a camera. That was simply my point.

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by boygenius

Right that is completely understandable

Here is your previous post I am responding to...

I just doubt like you said earlier the ENTIRE goverment will drop RIM because one of the devices out of 20 they offer contains a camera. That was simply my point.

I guess the way I said it wasn't the best way. It really should have said that they (RIM) will lose a significant portion of their public sector business by adding a device with a camera. The whole kitten caboodle may not totally drop RIM, but they will be much more hesitant to purchase the devices, and many agencies will in fact drop the devices and look for alternative means of push e-mail.

The problem with the government when it comes to IT is they make rash decisions. I'll bet my portfolio that there will be at least one upper manager who hears that BlackBerries now have cameras and will totally ban them from their site.

[Boy Genius]

Yeah you definatly could be right about that, and your not wrong at where you work/have worked. I can't argue that, I just thought your statement about them losing the biggest client was an overstatement. Thanks for your information though, it is very valueable.

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by boygenius

Yeah you definatly could be right about that, and your not wrong at where you work/have worked. I can't argue that, I just thought your statement about them losing the biggest client was an overstatement. Thanks for your information though, it is very valueable.

No problem. Sorry I wasn't clear on what I really meant.

[Good_Guy]

Just a thought, but due to the large volume of business that RIM does with the government, I would think they would make a way to disable the camera on a device that has one.

[jibi]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Just a thought, but due to the large volume of business that RIM does with the government, I would think they would make a way to disable the camera on a device that has one.

not to mention that, as of BES 4.1, you can now define which devices can be added to the BES and which cannot. if it wasn't defined as a device that could be added, then the user can't simply go out and get a new device and activate it on their own.

[KonTiki]

[Quote Good_Guy]Originally Posted by Good_Guy
Just a thought, but due to the large volume of business that RIM does with the government, I would think they would make a way to disable the camera on a device that has one.[/Quote]

Ok thats a good one, now for the easy part, try and convince a 5.95/Hr Rent-A-Cop that your Camera in your BlackBerry is disabled, and even if it is and you could prove it that once you are in the building either with a phone call or just a simple server command from outside the camera would be reactivated, good luck on that one.

[dc/dc]

Originally Posted by KonTiki

Ok thats a good one, now for the easy part, try and convince a 5.95/Hr Rent-A-Cop that your Camera in your BlackBerry is disabled, and even if it is and you could prove it that once you are in the building either with a phone call or just a simple server command from outside the camera would be reactivated, good luck on that one.

Unfortunately you are right.

[KonTiki]

I was dead set against cameras in BBs from my own experiences, then I started to say OK, as long as there is a clear option for the ones that do not want it, but the real issue is that we are not dealing with rocket scientists at these security points, and now as it is BBs are hardly checked because it is know that they do not have the cameras, I am sure though that once they have cameras available that whole matter may and will change for most of us. Now, if RIM does decide to delve into this area which is certainly their right, my suggestion would be for the Camera BlackBerrys to be handled by a separate division of the company and marketed with a completely separate trademark, thus leaving the earned reputation the BlackBerry name has so hard fought to establish and maintain, otherwise in a day all of it is history.