[jsconyers]

My buddy just sent this to me.

YouTube - Rep. Tom Price admonishes govt-takeover of healthcare

I agree with Rep. Price on his views here.

[JSanders]

What is also interesting is the behavior of the several congressmen who are refusing taxpayers and voters the ability to publicly speak out on this issue at their personal townhall meetings.

[test54]

Well I think their intent is to hijack the meetings, not to speak out or ask decent questions. I think there needs to be more open town hall events where the rumors can be dispelled. That is part of the problem, I do agree on that.

[test54]

Originally Posted by kathrynhr

I'm not generally a fan of government intervention into the lives of the people, but I believe some form of national health insurance makes good sense. In the case of health care, unlike most other areas that fall under the "pursuit of happiness" umbrella, the people who have the most problems are generally the least able to go do something for themselves to change the situation.

As an illustration of how things can go right, here's an article about how VA has done a lot of things right in managed care:

How Veterans' Hospitals Became the Best in Health Care - TIME

I agree.

[JSanders]

Originally Posted by test54

Well I think their intent is to hijack the meetings, not to speak out or ask decent questions. I think there needs to be more open town hall events where the rumors can be dispelled. That is part of the problem, I do agree on that.

Ah, well, turnabout is not fairplay? We'll just call this "community organizing". After all, we did learn it from the best, right?

[monkeypaw]

Originally Posted by test54

the spread of these rumors is really amazing. kudos to the GOP & lobbyists.

If you're referring to my post, what "rumor" did I have?

Medicare is going bankrupt. That is one of the reasons given for the necessity of reform.

Somehow, after the bill, the money which can not sustain Medicare will now support Medicare plus half of the new program.

What is hard about the math here? There's a line in the sand about raising taxes on those earning less than $250,000, so that implies no payroll tax increase. The rich are being gouged for the other half of the program funding through some other tax.

The only other way for this to work are cuts in benefits to future recipients. This is plain as day. Only in some fantasy political world do the dollars stretch to cover Medicare plus some new program without some form of cuts.

[kathrynhr]

The entire public/electorate is notoriously and willfully disinformed. Neither party is immune from mass stupidity.

This is a FactCheck.org article about the deceptions made by both sides during the 2008 US presidential election, and who drank what flavor of whose Kool-Aid:

Our Disinformed Electorate | FactCheck.org

[test54]

Originally Posted by JSanders

Ah, well, turnabout is not fairplay? We'll just call this "community organizing". After all, we did learn it from the best, right?

Very true.

[test54]

Originally Posted by monkeypaw

If you're referring to my post, what "rumor" did I have?

Medicare is going bankrupt. That is one of the reasons given for the necessity of reform.

Somehow, after the bill, the money which can not sustain Medicare will now support Medicare plus half of the new program.

What is hard about the math here? There's a line in the sand about raising taxes on those earning less than $250,000, so that implies no payroll tax increase. The rich are being gouged for the other half of the program funding through some other tax.

The only other way for this to work are cuts in benefits to future recipients. This is plain as day. Only in some fantasy political world do the dollars stretch to cover Medicare plus some new program without some form of cuts.

I'm not trying to pick fights here, I just think the time has come for an upheaval of the failing healthcare system in the country. That includes medicare / medicaid. The proposal is that between money set aside and reducing the waste in Medicare that the new plan will be funded. If you do not think there is waste in the program then thats your belief, no problem here. To me though it's there and it needs to be optimized like anything else and the money saved should go directly to the health care plan.

There is no solution where everyone personally benefits. So to me you do whats best for everyone as a whole - yes I know that sounds almost Socialist or Christian depending on your views....

[monkeypaw]

Originally Posted by test54

I'm not trying to pick fights here, I just think the time has come for an upheaval of the failing healthcare system in the country. That includes medicare / medicaid. The proposal is that between money set aside and reducing the waste in Medicare that the new plan will be funded. If you do not think there is waste in the program then thats your belief, no problem here. To me though it's there and it needs to be optimized like anything else and the money saved should go directly to the health care plan.

There is no solution where everyone personally benefits. So to me you do whats best for everyone as a whole - yes I know that sounds almost Socialist or Christian depending on your views....

The part of the health care system that is failing is the government piece. Precisely because it is rife with waste, fraud, and abuse. The private insurance companies aren't going bankrupt.

After this bill, the government programs will still be rife with waste, fraud, and abuse.

If by some miracle, they do increase the efficiency and get the program solvent, that money does not belong to the politicians. Those savings are for either future benefits or should go toward payroll tax rate reductions.

I'm all for reform, but the proposals floating around are the most ridiculous "solutions" out there. There's no attempt at tort reform or other efforts that would really reduce costs and eventually premiums. There's just some new huge bureaucracy that's going to cost more on top of what I already pay.

[jimbob_]

what a bunch of bunk.
The private insurance companies are cutting off health care to 14,000 people a day, and dropping anyone who comes down with any kind of expensive illness. As one who works in the Medical industry, and who sells 99% of our product to insured people I see everyday the companies drop people who file a legitimate claim even for a product listed as covered by the company.

Not to mention that 47 million Americans have nothing, which for most means they can't buy medical products at all. they could be my customers!

[test54]

Originally Posted by jimbob_

what a bunch of bunk.
The private insurance companies are cutting off health care to 14,000 people a day, and dropping anyone who comes down with any kind of expensive illness. As one who works in the Medical industry, and who sells 99% of our product to insured people I see everyday the companies drop people who file a legitimate claim even for a product listed as covered by the company.

Not to mention that 47 million Americans have nothing, which for most means they can't buy medical products at all. they could be my customers!

[test54]

Originally Posted by monkeypaw

If by some miracle, they do increase the efficiency and get the program solvent, that money does not belong to the politicians. Those savings are for either future benefits or should go toward payroll tax rate reductions.

and there is your angle. None of the money belongs to the politicians, it is still tax payer money and should be put towards a program that helps out those taxpayers...

[monkeypaw]

Originally Posted by test54

and there is your angle. None of the money belongs to the politicians, it is still tax payer money and should be put towards a program that helps out those taxpayers...

I'm glad you found your "angle".

It is money that is specifically collected for medical care when people are retired or disabled. Using it for another purpose such as regular healthcare is unethical no matter what it is used for.

[jacobsaa]

Originally Posted by test54

and there is your angle. None of the money belongs to the politicians, it is still tax payer money and should be put towards a program that helps out those taxpayers...

The only taxpayers that are going to foot the bill for this health care program are not the ones who are going to benefit from it. The people who this will help aren't paying a dime into the system, or the program.

[kathrynhr]

Originally Posted by jacobsaa

The only taxpayers that are going to foot the bill for this health care program are not the ones who are going to benefit from it. The people who this will help aren't paying a dime into the system, or the program.

I disagree with your blanket statement, but you've just nailed down the major reason why most conservatives object to social programs like this, even programs that would be of major benefit: at bottom, all social programs are about wealth transfer.

[jacobsaa]

Originally Posted by kathrynhr

I disagree with your blanket statement, but you've just nailed down the major reason why most conservatives object to social programs like this, even programs that would be of major benefit: at bottom, all social programs are about wealth transfer.

Tell me, please, how this program is going to benefit me. Please, I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have excellent care now. With the passage of this, my care will be reduced and my personal cost for it will go up, which makes the government plan look more attractive. Eventually, that's all that will be availble. Let's get serious here and stop being so naive. Just because Obama says, "if you like your plan you can keep it" doesn't mean your company IS GOING TO LET YOU! It's time to wake up people.

You also need to be careful in listening to Obama when he says that HE wont ration care. Of course he wont. His proposed savings comes from allowing hospitals to make less money (a ceiling) to what they can make, which will no doubt reduce the number that surgeons, hospitals and doctors will perform (a clear indication from every other country with socialized healthcare), and what they, themselves have said. If something is not profitable, it doesn't get done!

1) The poor wont be paying for it (they dont pay taxes). They will benefit from it.
2) Children won't be paying for it (they dont pay taxes). They will benefit from it.

A HUGE number of Americans will not be paying for this plan: The poor, the elderly, children, the unemployed. How do you honestly expect 40 million (20 million of them who choose not to have healthcare) new people to get on the rolls without incuring debt. How can rationing not occur?

If Barry was serious about damning these lobbyists (many of whom work for him) then why doesnt he make prescription drugs more affordable by caping what they can make here? He's a socialist, right? Why doesn't he, like some have mentioned, put tort reform on the table? Because he's on the take, and this plan is a f---ing sham.

This plan will not benefit me, nor will it benefit most of the middle class.

[test54]

Originally Posted by jacobsaa

Tell me, please, how this program is going to benefit me. Please, I'd love to hear your reasoning. I have excellent care now. With the passage of this, my care will be reduced and my personal cost for it will go up, which makes the government plan look more attractive. Eventually, that's all that will be availble. Let's get serious here and stop being so naive. Just because Obama says, "if you like your plan you can keep it" doesn't mean your company IS GOING TO LET YOU! It's time to wake up people.

Greed & Fortune telling do not become you.

[kathrynhr]

I said I disagreed with your blanket statement, that the "only" people who will benefit from the program are those who do not pay for it. I am not in a position to comment on whether or not you, personally, will benefit.

I gather from your remarks that you base your opinion of any given social program's acceptability on whether or not you, personally, get more out of it than you paid in taxes... is that true?

I don't suppose my family has ever gotten more out of any program than we paid in, with the possible exception of the taxes that go toward public education.

[jacobsaa]

Originally Posted by test54

Greed & Fortune telling do not become you.

Cute, but that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Secondly, in a capitalist society, which im sure everyone here has benefited from substantially, the government has no right to tell my company what it can offer and what it cant in terms of healthcare.