[jacobsaa]

Originally Posted by kathrynhr

I said I disagreed with your blanket statement, that the "only" people who will benefit from the program are those who do not pay for it. I am not in a position to comment on whether or not you, personally, will benefit.

I gather from your remarks that you base your opinion of any given social program's acceptability on whether or not you, personally, get more out of it than you paid in taxes... is that true?

I don't suppose my family has ever gotten more out of any program than we paid in, with the possible exception of the taxes that go toward public education.

That's a fair point, but im sure the roads are a solid investment (depending where you live). Try buidling your own . As to your other statement, most people will not benefit overall from this program. It just will not happen. If you follow Expressio unius est exclusio alterius then there are roughly 260 million people with health coverage in the United States (we can reasonably expect the number to be less, because the government is not that accurate). Every politician personally wants a privatized health system, but the left wants you to have a socialized one. The Heritage Foundation (which is usually pretty accurate) projects 60 million people falling onto the government rolls (coming off of private plans) because those plans will no longer be available. Many people will never get off. That alone is a little crazy. Negatively impacting 60 million in order to help 40 million. Another government net loss.... but the number will eventually reach higher than 60.

[test54]

Sorry but please check again - this is not an Capitalist only country. Look all around you, there are programs and agencies paid for by tax payer dollars that provides services for citizens. And my comment is 100% relevant because your argument is that because the program does not personally benefit you that it is no good....that to me is greed, and the fortune telling is due to the fact that your making projection of things that will happen in the future when it is impossible to know or foretell.

I do appreciate the argument though and see where it comes from but obviously I feel the potential of the program to help out more Americans far outweighs the downsides.

[jacobsaa]

Originally Posted by test54

Sorry but please check again - this is not an Capitalist only country. Look all around you, there are programs and agencies paid for by tax payer dollars that provides services for citizens. And my comment is 100% relevant because your argument is that because the program does not personally benefit you that it is no good....that to me is greed, and the fortune telling is due to the fact that your making projection of things that will happen in the future when it is impossible to know or foretell.

I do appreciate the argument though and see where it comes from but obviously I feel the potential of the program to help out more Americans far outweighs the downsides.

You sound like a utilitarian. If you were, you'd be against this program because it will do more damage than good, immediately upon its implementation and practice. It has nothing to do with me personally, but the situation I highlighted is the situation that is going to happen to millions of americans, yes, the americans FUNDING this program. Let's get serious, Test, projections are why things are done and not done. Let's not try to pretend that you don't "project". I'm not greedy and donate lots of money a year to charity, mostly the ASPCA and HSUS =). But I do so at my own choosing. I dont want to give someone my money who isnt working as hard as I am. Like I said, 20 Million people in the US can afford healthcare but would rather have a plasma TV. They don't deserve the care.

Now, if you want to talk about universal care, not controlled by the government, then I'm all ears, and you made some valid points about tort reform (where frankly this should start) but I dont want Obama deciding what care I get or when I get it. This could become political! Is there a way, you can think of, to cover everyone who needs it, without Uncle Sam approving or denying care?

[kathrynhr]

Let's leave the currently proposed bill(s) aside for a moment.

As of July 2008, the US had just over 304 million residents. (Source: Google) A fluid pool of about that number of people (taking into account births and deaths) either need health care now, or will need it in the future. IMO, NEED it, as in, it is a human rights issue. Like food, clothing, shelter, and access to clean water, health care is a need which - if denied - creates a national security problem. We are a production-oriented society, and sick people either cannot produce efficiently, or in extreme cases, cannot produce at all. In addition, many sick people, if left untreated, create sickness in other people, further handicapping our ability to create goods, services and wealth.

It is in the best interest of all of us to ensure that every member of this society (citizen or no) is as healthy as it is possible for him or her to be. The more people are well, the fewer need assistance from others.

That said, I agree that the government is not the most efficient vehicle for getting most things accomplished. The problem, however, is that IMO it is generally the fairest. So despite my hatred of bureaucracy and the general scope-creep of government (especially in a Democrat-controlled environment), when we're talking about a human rights issue like health care, I am personally not comfortable leaving the solution to the free market. I think despite any laws that get passed, as long as the bottom line IS the bottom line, there will never be universal anything. We will continue to have what we have now, which is health insurers begging (and in some cases paying) their employees to find loopholes... choosing to drop expensive patients from their rolls in order to get a better rating from Wall Street and please their stockholders.

[test54]

I would agree with your points Kathrynhr.

To me the healthcare issue is not just a human rights / national security but a Economic issue as well. American love to complain about how manufacturing jobs have left the country yet do not associate the dependence on employer based healthcare into that equation. Unions & Employers have allowed some industries to simply vanish because they could not maintain the growth in revenue needed to pay their workers & benefits.

Very similar to Public School system I think it should be every American's right to have their basic healthcare provided by a tax payer based system. If one chooses to use a Private School or Private Insurance then that's their choice but there should be a public option as well. Education & Healthcare to me are both so crucial to the well being of the country and its future. Free Market as has always been the case cannot provide for everyone and will always put the priority on profitability over the greater good.

jacob - As it stands now Private Companies deny & approve people everyday based strictly on if they can make profits off that person...(The Government has at the very least been willing to spend money on unprofitable things.)
Again I know there are people that do not deserve care but the affordable coverage that will be gained far outweighs the undeserving people that will be covered. As for your personal coverage, well if your so Free Market then doesn't competition breed better experiences for the consumer?
And as Kathryn posted - the VA does a good job - not perfect but good job in their system.

[djm2]

Kathrynhr.

My compliments on a well thought out and cogent presentation of your stance.

[test54]

love the clips of Barney Frank shooting down the idiot who talks about Obama's Nazi policies...brilliant. Such stupidity from the public.

[angelbear1973]

How in the hell did you all come up with its a national security issue? You are really pushing the limits there. Did you all see how the cash for clunkers was handled? Do you really want them to run your health care? come on put down the kool aide

[mriff]

Originally Posted by test54

love the clips of Barney Frank shooting down the idiot who talks about Obama's Nazi policies...brilliant. Such stupidity from the public.

Agreed! It's about time someone called out the misinformed.

[djm2]

Health care reform is a crucial issue for this country, regardless of which side of the aisle one stands on for this debate. To have the serious issue denigrated into stupid appeals to FUD as opposed to rational discussion and debate regarding the issues that are at play is, IMO, completely reprehensible. And the "death squads" and Nazi allegations fall into that definition of reprehensible.

[kathrynhr]

@ Test:

No fair, you said the N-word! May I remind those here assembled of Godwin's Law! Second only to Formosa's Law in its singular importance in online conversation, Godwin's Law is in imminent danger of violation at present in this thread.

</tongue in cheek>

[test54]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...care?page=full

People should educate themselves rather than simply following the fanatics.

[angelbear1973]

Originally Posted by test54

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...care?page=full

People should educate themselves rather than simply following the fanatics.

Boy if that aint the kettle calling the pot black.

[test54]

If anything I educate myself. The people at these "town halls" have been yelling things that are so ignorant. - that's my point.

[JSanders]

hahaha, now the public, is ignorant... because the public is enraged and outraged at this policy move. May I remind Mr. Test, he too is a member of the "ignorant" public.

We all don't sit in the ivory towers of Congress and those who drink the Obama koolaid.

Funny how this turns your stomach now that the show is on the other foot.

[test54]

Jsanders - there is plenty i am ignorant about, I would never say otherwise. My point is the people who are outraged are yelling things that are simply wrong. Comparing Nazis to Obama is just stupid, people talking about death panels and illegals getting healthcare coverage is stupid.

You are right about when the shoe is on the other foot, no doubt about that. Thank god the shoe is on the other foot.....

[fonejunkie]

...

[monkeypaw]

The Canadian Press: Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canadaxxx39;s doctors

"SASKATOON xxx8212; The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

...

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig....

[mriff]

Originally Posted by monkeypaw

The Canadian Press: Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada's doctors

"SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.

"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."

...

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig....

Wow, sounds just like what's happening here in the good ol US!

[monkeypaw]

Originally Posted by mriff

Wow, sounds just like what's happening here in the good ol US!

Sounds just like what's happening to government programs in the US. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. The public insurers are solvent.