[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Nothing arrogant about it. It's simple posturing. If you've ever been involved in any serious business litigation, you know to both expect this from the opposition as well as from your legal representative and/or spokesperson.

Hmm, as a matter of fact, I have - more than once. And I guarantee we'd have fired the spokesperson if they called the opponent's lawsuit "silly" for attribution. That's NOT the way to try to drive an amicable, negotiated solution before things get out of hand and it becomes an all out, down and dirty legal battle to the death.

[mk1151]

and while i am getting 300k+ download speeds on my 8703 or 8707, the iPhone will limp along... oh, and i can hack my blackberry and my smartphone.

i dont see much customization happening here...

and you can't even hit iTunes even though it has a browser, WiFi, and iPod software.

not bad, but not $500 of goodness. $100 more and I have a BlueRay playing PS3...

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Hmm, as a matter of fact, I have - more than once. And I guarantee we'd have fired the spokesperson if they called the opponent's lawsuit "silly" for attribution. That's NOT the way to try to drive an amicable, negotiated solution before things get out of hand and it becomes an all out, down and dirty legal battle to the death.

If only one party played by that set of rules, it might make sense. Unfortunately, it's played that way by both sides. It's posturing which does no material harm and carries no legal weight. Just part of the negotiation. Again, simple garden variety.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by backbeat

If only one party played by that set of rules, it might make sense. Unfortunately, it's played that way by both sides. It's posturing which does no material harm and carries no legal weight. Just part of the negotiation.

Trust me, it obviously is "played" that way once in a while, as Apple is demonstrating in this case, but its *very often* NOT played that way, because calling your opponent names is generally not considered to be the smartest move to try to get them to the table for a negotiated settlement.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Trust me, it obviously is "played" that way once in a while, as Apple is demonstrating in this case, but its *very often* NOT played that way, because calling your opponent names is generally not considered to be the smartest move to try to get them to the table for a negotiated settlement.

Been there. Done that. I know better. A defendant referring to a suit as 'silly' is only name-calling to those with already exposed nerves.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Been there. Done that. I know better.

You're awful good at baiting, aren't you? As I already said, I've "been there, done that" too. But I'm very glad to know that you "know better." Riiiigggggghhhhhhhhttttttttt.......

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

You're awful good at baiting, aren't you? As I already said, I've "been there, done that" too. But I'm very glad to know that you "know better." Riiiigggggghhhhhhhhttttttttt.......

If you must make an issue personal, why not address it thru back-channels and keep the forum less polluted?

[Stinsonddog]

I know this is a heated topic. Please keep this the dialog here sane.
Take anything heated to PM please. I have let my perspectives be known in a sane way in various threads, and I would encourage you all to do the same.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by Stinsonddog

I know this is a heated topic. Please keep this the dialog here sane.

Thanks!

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by Stinsonddog

I know this is a heated topic. Please keep this the dialog here sane.
Take anything heated to PM please. I have let my perspectives be known in a sane way in various threads, and I would encourage you all to do the same.

Thanks for the reply.

[SanFrancisco]

I recall when the Ducati 999 motorcycle debuted in 2003. There was lots of talk, reviews and comments about it. From 2003 on there was lots of criticism about the bike. Eventually there were two sides, you either liked the new styling or you did not. There was no in-between.

What I said at the end of 2003 was that people were missing the bigger picture, that there was a lot of heated debate by those who did not like the bike. I predicted that such indicated that the 999 was a flop and that Ducati would be changing the super bike model because if the bike was a success people would not be debating whether they liked it or not from a styling standpoint. Sure enough, in 2006 Ducati dumped the 999 and came out with the 1098 super bike. Before that, in 2005 they made some styling changes to try and save the 999. That did not work.

What's this got to do with the iPhone? Well it seems to me there's a lot of criticism about the iPhone all over the Net. IMHO since the phone is not even out yet, the negative reviews and comments do not bode well for the iPhone.

I know Apple fans only want to hear nice things about the iPhone, but it just seems to me the iPhone is in trouble.

As an aside, I want to say that I especially enjoyed those of you commenting about the technical side of things, both in regards to the iPhone and BB's in comparison. Such information is valuable when attempting to make an informed purchase decision, not that I was considering the iPhone, but the info comes in handy when considering other BB models or understanding my Pearl, warts and all.

[SanFrancisco]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Trust me, it obviously is "played" that way once in a while, as Apple is demonstrating in this case, but its *very often* NOT played that way, because calling your opponent names is generally not considered to be the smartest move to try to get them to the table for a negotiated settlement.

You are right. I have seen many a settlement go up in flames because of something someone said.

Even though business litigation involves big money and faceless corporations, there are human beings paying the lawyers. Sometimes the client will take things personal and fight on just because they personally hate the opposing party.

I have seen parties close to settling, the lawyers effectively calming down their respective clients, only to see them practically coming to blows when meeting face to face or reading something offensive in a letter, for example.

Some decision maker could very well take offense to an Apple rep publicly saying to the media that Cisco's lawsuit is silly. That implies that the Cisco decision maker is silly. I could see the decision maker the next morning telling his lawyers to turn up the heat and saying to heck with trying to settle the case.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

I know Apple fans only want to hear nice things about the iPhone, but it just seems to me the iPhone is in trouble.

I actually think that Apple has two distinct and different problems with the iPhone. The first they could easily do something about, the second, they really can't do anything about at this stage.

The first problem is some of the design choices they made. I think these have been discussed plenty here, and honestly, any of them could be changed before launch, or in a later device.

The second problem is a bit bigger, which is Apple's image. I think a lot of the criticism of the device at this early stage, is an inevitable reaction to the way the media covers Apple, and the hyperbolic claims that accompany any Apple press release. It is no secret, that the bulk of people in publishing and media use Apple computers as their computer of choice, and ever since the iPod became successful, they have not missed any opportunity to crow from the rooftops about how wonderful Apple is. The problem with this, is it leads to a rather predictable, and unfortunate backlash. A backlash that Apple all but ensures as it runs ads that are literally based on a "we're smart, you're stupid" theme, and makes comments like "everybody hates their phone, and that is an opportunity for us."

The fact is, not everybody hates their phone. Actually, a great many people love their phones! So to start out of the gate saying everybody should hate their phone because you have just reinvented the entire communication industry, is bound to bring some pretty heavy scrutiny on your company from those people who were quite happy with what they already had. Add to that every news outlet and internet site on the planet running articles that are more than happy to parrot Apple's press releases, and pretty quickly you have people polarized into two camps. Those who believe the hype, and are all too happy to join the "we're smart, you're stupid" Apple culture, and those who don't believe the hype, and thus are being told they are stupid.

It is actually quite analogous to the problem Sony has gotten themselves into, where no matter what they do, they get bad press, except this goes the other way around. What you have is a lot of people who refuse to believe a single good thing said about Apple no matter how ecstatic the press gets. To a lot of people, the iPod is old news, they are sick of hearing about it, and are looking for something new, but the press never tires of hearing themselves talk about how wonderful the iPod is. I think that is spilling over to this device. The more press coverage it gets as "the next thing Apple, the people who brought you the revolutionary and iconic iPod, will do to revolutionize our society" the more some people roll their eyes, and look forward to shooting holes in the device.

My suspicion is that very soon Apple is going to learn why it is that all the other companies work so hard to downplay expectations, rather than trying to whip them into a frenzy. Apple could get away with it on the iPod, because they didn't really have any serious competition until they had already established themselves in the market. Nokia, Motorola, Microsoft, RIM and all the other companies in the phone market, on the other hand, aren't just going to sit around waiting to see how Apple does before deciding whether or not to respond.

I also have to say, I hope Apple doesn't plan on marketing the iPhone in Asia anytime soon, because they are pretty proud of how much more advanced their phones are in that part of the world than the phones here, and Apple's whole "we make your puny phone look obsolete" approach is sure to be met with an even harsher reaction over there than it has been here.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

http://www.heartinsanfrancisco.com/aniofftopic.gif You are right. I have seen many a settlement go up in flames because of something someone said.

Even though business litigation involves big money and faceless corporations, there are human beings paying the lawyers. Sometimes the client will take things personal and fight on just because they personally hate the opposing party.

I have seen parties close to settling, the lawyers effectively calming down their respective clients, only to see them practically coming to blows when meeting face to face or reading something offensive in a letter, for example.

Some decision maker could very well take offense to an Apple rep publicly saying to the media that Cisco's lawsuit is silly. That implies that the Cisco decision maker is silly. I could see the decision maker the next morning telling his lawyers to turn up the heat and saying to heck with trying to settle the case.

Thanks, that was exactly the point I originally was making. I've been involved and seen exactly that happen - not as legal counsel or THE decision maker, but as part of the management team involved in a case. Thanks for ratifying it from the viewpoint of counsel.

[SanFrancisco]

Just in, the evening news mentioned the Cisco lawsuit. Won't bother with details but in the background during the story there was a graphic that said:

iFIGHT

All I have to say is:

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by SanFrancisco

Just in, the evening news mentioned the Cisco lawsuit. Won't bother with details but in the background during the story there was a graphic that said:

iFIGHT

Actually, I was just thinking about this, and something occurred to me. If Apple is going to go with the "it is a substantially different device" then they are going to have to prohibit any sort of VoIP on it. I mean, that is if they won on that defense, which I can't really see happening. However, it opens up an interesting question. On a phone with Wi-Fi, at what point can you say it is different from another phone with Wi-Fi. All I can see is that you argue that since it is using a different protocol, it is a different type of device.

No, it is just a bad argument all around. I go back to saying that Apple should just pay them, or change the name as soon as possible. The more press they get for the iPhone, the harder it will be for them to walk away from the name.

[GMK]

Regarding the iPhone, the CEO of Nokia says, "Apple's objective is not at a very high level," Vanjoki was quoted as saying.

Source: Nokia says iPhone "quite interesting": report - Yahoo! News

What's a mere 10-12 million units to these guys?

[joe allen]

it will be all the rage with the 13-15 year old girls when you see paris hilton, that spears chick, or other half-wit celebrities carrying one. its the new sidekick.

[GMK]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

No, it is just a bad argument all around. I go back to saying that Apple should just pay them, or change the name as soon as possible. The more press they get for the iPhone, the harder it will be for them to walk away from the name.

I tend to agree and when the hype settles I feel that Apple will pay some money to Cisco in a negotiated settlement. Apple's feet dragging (brinkmanship?) is as calculated as is Cisco's suit. I don't think either side would want to know the outcome if negotiations completely fail and the suit presses forward. I think a judge could lose patience pretty early if these two can't or won't get together on this.

[SanFrancisco]

Originally Posted by GMK

Regarding the iPhone, the CEO of Nokia says, "Apple's objective is not at a very high level," Vanjoki was quoted as saying.

Source: Nokia says iPhone "quite interesting": report - Yahoo! News

What's a mere 10-12 million units to these guys?

Excellent find! Gotta love his comments. Nicely tweaks the nose of all those who posted in here words to the effect that the iPhone will cause the competition to run back to R & D for some new ideas.

And as to the "big" numbers of iPhones that will permeate the market, I love Nokia whipping out its stats:

Nokia said earlier this week it had sold close to 70 million phones with integrated MP3 players last year but analysts say sales of Nokia's music-focused devices account for only a small share of that total.

I will be very surprised if the iPhone does well by the time it's released.