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Dawg 02-23-2009 12:10 PM

But when a parable is used it was usually stated as someone telling the story. As in Christs teachings. What parable are you talking about in the story of David?

I used an illustration because I couldn't tell you personally with my voice.

test54 02-23-2009 12:19 PM

Nathan told David a story about sheep I believe, but my thoughts are more that the authors of the Old Testament were including parables in telling some of the Old Testament stories. I know the Torah is believed to be directly give to Moses from God but the majority of the Old Testament is from unknown authors.

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1012.htm

mriff 02-23-2009 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1295655)
I made my points about fossils and how they came to be and no one on the other side wants to hear my arguments.

I believe the flood caused all the fossils

Because your arguments have no basis in reality. Show me one scientist who can verify what you believe. All the evidence is to the contrary.

bigolsparky 02-23-2009 03:56 PM

Is it possible for a Polar Bear, an Ostrich, and a Hippopotamus to migrate from the same location to where they are now?

JSanders 02-23-2009 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by test54 (Post 1295883)
Nathan told David a story about sheep I believe,

You are correct, that is exactly a parable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by test54 (Post 1295883)
but the majority of the Old Testament is from unknown authors.

Unknown to you maybe, but not Biblical scholars.

Most of the authors are easily identifiable as historical figures. A few of the Major Prophets' are less easy to identify as a historical figure, but nonetheless much much less than a "majority of the Old Testament", as you state.

test54 02-23-2009 04:25 PM

well maybe a majority is a stretch but a good portion are disputable to scholars. My point is that their use of parables can not be discredited, at least by me. But that being said the meaning might be different but the overall lessons are mainly the same.

Dawg 02-23-2009 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1295908)
Because your arguments have no basis in reality. Show me one scientist who can verify what you believe. All the evidence is to the contrary.

Let me ask you one question did God have anything to do with you or me being here?

Did he have anything to do with creation at all?

If not what is God for in your beliefs?

mriff 02-23-2009 05:06 PM

That was three questions. And they have nothing to do with my question to you. What I believe and how I worship is personal. How I relate that to the natural world around me is how we differ. You have blind faith. I have a need to understand. I studied biological sciences in college because of that thirst to understand. I believe in the science that is presented in various diciplines. Particularly when it comes to the natural world. So again, show me credible evidence that the deposition of fossils points to a biblical flood and not to deposition over many millions of years.

Dawg 02-23-2009 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1296245)
That was three questions. And they have nothing to do with my question to you. What I believe and how I worship is personal. How I relate that to the natural world around me is how we differ. You have blind faith. I have a need to understand. I studied biological sciences in college because of that thirst to understand. I believe in the science that is presented in various diciplines. Particularly when it comes to the natural world. So again, show me credible evidence that the deposition of fossils points to a biblical flood and not to deposition over many millions of years.

The reason I ask you is because the Catholic churchs stance is that God created everything. So I wanted to know how a good Catholic is supposed to go against the church.
I mean you said your parents would roll over in their grave at something a complete stranger said. But yet their own son is going against what their own church believes.

"Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing"

"it (the church)in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution."



Taken straight from Catholic.com Boy you better run confess your sins against the church. The Pope might come after you.

mriff 02-23-2009 09:06 PM

Once again Dawg, how I reconcile my faith and my belief in the natural world is my business. No matter what you say, you can't draw me into your small world. And that's quite a cheap shot bringing my parents into it, even for you Dawg. It's a tactic that people like you use. Remember the word tautological from earlier in this thread? Look it up.

Now, again, please present evidence that supports your statements regarding the fossil record. I'm still waiting. And not holding my breath.

mriff 02-23-2009 09:16 PM

By the way, just for you Dawg, here's the position of the Catholic church concerning evolution and creation. Not surprisingly, you very convenienly left out much of the discussion. Maybe this is why Catholocism bothers you. They allow for biological evolution in their teachings. And are not afraid of what science has to offer!

The Catholic Position

What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that manís body developed from previous biological forms, under Godís guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matteró[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

mriff 02-23-2009 09:21 PM

From the same site. Wow, a religion that actually lets us thing for ourselves!

Catholics should weigh the evidence for the universeís age by examining biblical and scientific evidence. "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 159).

djm2 02-23-2009 10:40 PM

Catholicism is not afraid of thinking and evaluation, and yes JSanders I would include the last 5 (maybe more) popes in that statement. Some other faiths know that their belief system will not stand up to any critical scrutiny. {Cough Cough} Who might I be thinking of in this context???

Dawg 02-23-2009 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1296583)
From the same site. Wow, a religion that actually lets us thing for ourselves!

Catholics should weigh the evidence for the universeís age by examining biblical and scientific evidence. "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 159).

exactly Faith is above reason.


I said this already God allows discovery
and you just posted back up for me
Believe what you want. When you stand before God its you that has to answer for your sins not me, you are the one who denounces his creations its you yourself that has to answer for it.

I know for me my faith in God out weights any science you can ever produce. I also know I am no where near perfect but I can ask for forgiveness for my sins and I dont have to ask Christs mother, I can ask God personally.

Riff you brought your parents into the discussion not me. Once you bring a subject in its open for discussion. So be mad if you want I could care less. if you didnt want them discussed you should have left them out of trying to slam me.

Dawg 02-23-2009 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djm2 (Post 1296669)
Catholicism is not afraid of thinking

They also aren't afraid to protect child molesting priests either.

djm2 02-23-2009 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1296698)
exactly Faith is above reason.


I said this already God allows discovery
and you just posted back up for me
Believe what you want. When you stand before God its you that has to answer for your sins not me, you are the one who denounces his creations its you yourself that has to answer for it.

I know for me my faith in God out weights any science you can ever produce. I also know I am no where near perfect but I can ask for forgiveness for my sins and I dont have to ask Christs mother, I can ask God personally.

Riff you brought your parents into the discussion not me. Once you bring a subject in its open for discussion. So be mad if you want I could care less. if you didnt want them discussed you should have left them out of trying to slam me.

And that is a fundamental difference. For you there is NO WAY that any evidence can change your mind. For me -- and I suspect others on this thread -- evidence will change our minds.

And as for the "Christ's mother" comment -- cheap shot, even for you.

djm2 02-23-2009 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1296703)
They also aren't afraid to protect child molesting priests either.

You have identified one of the key failings of the Catholic Church in recent history.

Dawg 02-23-2009 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djm2 (Post 1296706)
And that is a fundamental difference. For you there is NO WAY that any evidence can change your mind. For me -- and I suspect others on this thread -- evidence will change our minds.

And as for the "Christ's mother" comment -- cheap shot, even for you.

How is it a cheap shot. Its the truth they do pray to mary.

The Hail Mary or Ave Maria (Latin) is a traditional Catholic prayer asking for the intercession of the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

djm2 02-23-2009 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1296715)
How is it a cheap shot. Its the truth they do pray to mary.

The Hail Mary or Ave Maria (Latin) is a traditional Catholic prayer asking for the intercession of the Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And your response here is typical -- address the secondary point through denial while avoiding the primary point. Boring.

JSanders 02-23-2009 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djm2 (Post 1296669)
Catholicism is not afraid of thinking and evaluation, and yes JSanders I would include the last 5 (maybe more) popes in that statement. Some other faiths know that their belief system will not stand up to any critical scrutiny. {Cough Cough} Who might I be thinking of in this context???

I don't know who or why you're hacking, name names. Which of the five Popes you are thinking of teach the errancy of the Bible?

Take the cheap shots, why put on a civil act now?


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