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mriff 02-24-2009 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1297687)
I dont want the Churchs Stance I want yours in your own words. Unless your not a free thinker.

I agree completely with the Catholic church's stance. No need to write in my own words.

Quote:

I can post a position from my Church as well but that doesnt make it my belief. I am not a lemming and don't go along with everything my Church says.
Again, it is my position. And I am not a lemming. I, as well, don't go along with everything my Church says.

POST YOUR CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF THE GREAT FLOOD CAUSING THE COMPLETE DEPOSITION OF ALL THE FOSSILS THAT EVER EXISTED.

JSanders 02-24-2009 05:04 PM

Yep all the details really don't matter if you don't know know Him.

Those details are all people-created. Sinner-created, is another way to look at it. :)

But God and Christ are very clear about knowing Him, denying Him, having a relationship with Him, and, finally, how you showed His love for others.

Dawg 02-24-2009 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297711)
I agree completely with the Catholic church's stance. No need to write in my own words.


Again, it is my position. And I am not a lemming. I, as well, don't go along with everything my Church says.

POST YOUR CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF THE GREAT FLOOD CAUSING THE COMPLETE DEPOSITION OF ALL THE FOSSILS THAT EVER EXISTED.

It doesn't matter what I post. If it doesnt come from a scientest you won't consider it. So why waste my time amd I correct?

Do you believe the flood happened?

mriff 02-24-2009 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1297775)
It doesn't matter what I post. If it doesnt come from a scientest you won't consider it. So why waste my time amd I correct?

Do you believe the flood happened?

And there you go my friends. Why don't you just say there is no evidence? That I blindly believe it, therefore it is so?

Dawg 02-24-2009 05:55 PM

Evidence for a Great Flood


1. The worldxxx8217;s oldest living organism, the bristle cone pine, 4300 years old.



2. A 20-year growth study of the Great Barrier Reef off the coast of Australia showed, the whole thing was probably formed in about 4200 years.



3. xxx8220;The Mississippi River deposits sediments at a rate of 80,000 tons an hour xxx8211; day after day, year after year xxx8211; at the point where the river flows into the Gulf of Mexico.xxx8221; Prentice Hall General Science, 1992 p. 145. At that rate you could account for all the sediments in the delta in 30,000 years. Thatxxx8217;s not taking into account for a Great Flood that probably deposited about 85% of that.



4. xxx8220;A gorge about 7 ˝ miles long runs just below Niagara Falls. A simple calculation shows that it has been 9900 years since Niagara River started cutting its gorge back from Lake Ontario.xxx8221; Holt Earth Science, 1984, p. 384.

They have to say that because if it had been doing that for millions of years, it would have reached the Gulf of Mexico a long time ago. About half of that was probably washed out by Noahxxx8217;s Flood about 4400 years ago.



5. The most common fossil in the world is the clam. There are trillions of them. Almost every single one of those fossilized clams have one thing in common, they are fossilized closed. That takes sudden, deep, burial. If you go down to a lake or river and find a closed clam, someone will say, xxx8220;Herexxx8217;s one still alive.xxx8221; The ligaments at the hinge of a clam shell relax very quickly after it dies, the clam will begin to open up very soon after death. The clam begins to decay, or will be eaten by a predator.

Dawg 02-24-2009 05:56 PM

Evidence of a Great Flood


1. The scriptural basis for a world-wide flood, and not just a local flood:



A. Why would God have Noah spend 120 years building that big boat?

You can move a long ways in 120 years.

B. Why would God gather two of all the animals from all over the world,

and put them on a boat to preserve them, if it was just going to flood there?

C. Would God make an everlasting covenant with Noah to never again destroy the earth with that type of flood, if it was just a local flood?

That would make God a liar, because there have been a lot of local floods since then.

D. How could you have the water above the highest mountains on earth, and just stay in one local area? Ever hear of something called gravity?



2. The Biblical description:



xxx8220;xxx8230;for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, (before the flood)

xxx8230;But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.xxx8221;

Genesis 2:5-6



The early earth was like a greenhouse, and also like a terrarium.



xxx8220;In the six hundredth year of Noahxxx8217;s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep (way down there) broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.xxx8221;

Genesis 7:11



3. The effects of the Water Canopy:



A. X-Ray and UV Radiation would be blocked out, which affect the aging process. Before the flood the average age was 912 years.

B. Heat would be trapped in causing a greenhouse effect.

C. The oxygen would become pressurized in the atmosphere.

It would be easier to breathe, and we would heal faster.



Ex: Baby Jessica was trapped in an 8 inch well for 58 ˝ hours. Parts of her body turned black. They put her in a Hyperbaric Oxygen Chamber and didnxxx8217;t have to amputate her leg. The increased pressure forces oxygen into the tissue and into the bloodstream quicker.



Life on Earth before the Flood:



If all the rock layers and fossils were formed by the Great Flood, the fossil record will tell us what life on earth was like before the Flood.



D. xxx8220;There were giants in the earth in those days;xxx8221; Genesis 6:4

a. Manxxx8217;s jawbone found in Turkey, 6.5 inches across.

b. Giant skeletons found in Walkerton, IN in 1925 ranging from 8 to 9 feet long.

c. Skeleton nearly 10 feet long found in Humbolt Lake, NV in 1931.

d. Skeleton 11.5 inches found in coal mine in Italy.

e. Skeleton 12 feet long found in Lompoc Rancho, CA in 1883.

f. Skeleton 12 feet long found near Tuscon, AZ in 1891.



E. Fossils of grasshoppers over 2 feet long have been found.

F. Fossils of dragonflies have been found with a three-foot wingspan.

G. ****roaches over 18 inches long have been found in the fossil record.

H. A fossil centipede 8.5 feet long has been found.

I. Fossil cattails have been found that were 60 feet long.

J. Fossils of beavers 9 feet long have been found.

K. Turtle fossils have been found that were 14 feet long.

L. Fossil birds have been found that were 13 feet tall.

M. A fossil donkey was found in Lubbock, TX that was 9 feet tall at the shoulder.

N. Fossil Buffalo horns have been found with a 12 foot span!

O. A Fossil Rhinoceros was found that was 18 feet tall at the shoulder. (University of Nebraska Museum)

P. Shark teeth have been found from a shark that was estimated at being over 80 feet long.



Things were very different in the Pre-Flood world.



4. Why did God use a flood and not just have all the bad people die?



A. The flood left evidence where a miracle would not.

B. The effects of the flood are here for all to see and be reminded of Godxxx8217;s judgment on sin.



IV. Evidence From The Grand Canyon


1. The top of the Grand Canyon is 6,000 feet above sea level.

2. Where the Colorado River enters the canyon it 2,800 feet above sea level.

3. The river flows downhill to its lowest point at 1,800 feet above sea level.

4. Rivers donxxx8217;t flow uphill.

5. That river did not carve out that canyon.



V. The Truth About the Rock Layers


1. Through natural processes fossils should be a rare

occurrence.

2. The fossils cannot tell us if they had any kids.

3. The fossils certainly cannot tell us if their kids were different

than other kids.

4. Fossil location does not prove relationship.

If I am buried on top of a hamster, it does not prove he was

my grandpa.

Dawg 02-24-2009 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297791)
And there you go my friends. Why don't you just say there is no evidence? That I blindly believe it, therefore it is so?

Just what I thought you would say. Thanks

mriff 02-24-2009 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1297814)
Evidence for a Great Flood


1. The world’s oldest living organism, the bristle cone pine, 4300 years old.

2. A 20-year growth study of the Great Barrier Reef off the coast of Australia showed, the whole thing was probably formed in about 4200years.

3. “The Mississippi River deposits sediments at a rate of 80,000 tons an hour – day after day, year after year – at the point where the river flows into the Gulf of Mexico.” Prentice Hall General Science, 1992 p. 145. At that rate you could account for all the sediments in the delta in 30,000 years. That’s not taking into account for a Great Flood that probably deposited about 85% of that.

4. “A gorge about 7 ˝ miles long runs just below Niagara Falls. A simple calculation shows that it has been 9900 years since Niagara River started cutting its gorge back from Lake Ontario.” Holt Earth Science, 1984, p. 384.

They have to say that because if it had been doing that for millions of years, it would have reached the Gulf of Mexico a long time ago. About half of that was probably washed out by Noah’s Flood about 4400 years ago.

5. The most common fossil in the world is the clam. There are trillions of them. Almost every single one of those fossilized clams have one thing in common, they are fossilized closed. That takes sudden, deep, burial. If you go down to a lake or river and find a closed clam, someone will say, “Here’s one still alive.” The ligaments at the hinge of a clam shell relax very quickly after it dies, the clam will begin to open up very soon after death. The clam begins to decay, or will be eaten by a predator.

Ok, so let me get this straight. Someone goes out and finds four things (only one of them can be verified) around the entire planet that appear to be between 5 and 10,000 years old and this is proof of a world wide flood? I don't get the logic. What about all the tree fossils that have been discovered that appear to be older? Before or after the flood? What about the early hominid fossils that have been discovered that are much older than 10K years? Before or after the flood? And how about all the dinosaur fossils? Before or after the flood?

And I'm no marine biologist, but I could imagine that when clams die that the the muscles and ligaments contract. But that's beside the point. Regardless of how they die, how do you explain the fact that they are found throughout numerous layers of the earths crust? All those layers were not deposited at the same time right? But over millions of years?

I would also appreciate a source for the information you post.

And really Dawg, you accused me of cutting and pasting off the web. Clearly you have done a fine job of googling yourself. Was it simply 'evidence of the great flood'?

mriff 02-24-2009 08:26 PM

For anyone who cares to read, this is a synopsis of a book by the National Academy of Sciences. The short 88 page book presents evidence of evolution. And makes the case against teaching creationism in school science classes. It is a pdf file.

http://books.nap.edu/html/11876/SECbrochure.pdf

Dawg 02-24-2009 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297918)
Ok, so let me get this straight. Someone goes out and finds four things (only one of them can be verified) around the entire planet that appear to be between 5 and 10,000 years old and this is proof of a world wide flood? I don't get the logic. What about all the tree fossils that have been discovered that appear to be older? Before or after the flood? What about the early hominid fossils that have been discovered that are much older than 10K years? Before or after the flood? And how about all the dinosaur fossils? Before or after the flood?

And I'm no marine biologist, but I could imagine that when clams die that the the muscles and ligaments contract. But that's beside the point. Regardless of how they die, how do you explain the fact that they are found throughout numerous layers of the earths crust? All those layers were not deposited at the same time right? But over millions of years?

I would also appreciate a source for the information you post.

And really Dawg, you accused me of cutting and pasting off the web. Clearly you have done a fine job of googling yourself. Was it simply 'evidence of the great flood'?

So you believe what the Catholic Church does except the flood. Wow thats amazing. The catholic Church considers it a Baptism for the world and you dont believe it. You better go see your priest and repent now.


I only said something about cutting and pasting when I wanted your personal answer not the churches but it seems you disagree with the church now. Interesting

Catechism of the Catholic Church no. 1219

“The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":
The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.
no. 1219

"The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the "nations", in other words, towards men grouped "in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations". no. 56

Details of the flood (e.g. its coverage, when it took place) are questions for science, not theology. For further information on the flood I recommend the following sites:

The Deluge:
Deluge - Original Catholic Encyclopedia

djm2 02-24-2009 10:40 PM

I'm sorry Dawg, but when any of the information that you present is grounded in an iota of science we can talk -- but your responses here are simply theology and would fail grade school science or 9th grade logic. You are welcome to your theology and you should live your personal life accordingly -- but don't impose your narrow minded "analysis" on my science, which is my religion. (And JSanders, that is for you and your narrow view of what people consider important and value.)

I have deliberately stopped making too many comments in this thread because I was rude to you earlier, and for that I apologize. But I was kind; I could say much more. Jeez.

JSanders 02-24-2009 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djm2 (Post 1298105)
but don't impose your narrow minded "analysis" on my science, which is my religion. (And JSanders, that is for you and your narrow view of what people consider important and value.)

lol, aren't you are the one most closed-minded poster in this thread who wants any thought other than your own "religion" of science censored from the classroom? Doesn't sound so warm and fuzzy to me.

mriff 02-25-2009 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1298038)
So you believe what the Catholic Church does except the flood. Wow thats amazing. The catholic Church considers it a Baptism for the world and you dont believe it. You better go see your priest and repent now.


I only said something about cutting and pasting when I wanted your personal answer not the churches but it seems you disagree with the church now. Interesting

Catechism of the Catholic Church no. 1219

“The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":
The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.
no. 1219

"The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the "nations", in other words, towards men grouped "in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations". no. 56

Details of the flood (e.g. its coverage, when it took place) are questions for science, not theology. For further information on the flood I recommend the following sites:

The Deluge:
Deluge - Original Catholic Encyclopedia

So it's back to your view of my view of my religion. So it's ok if you disagree with your church but not others? How hypocritical. I simply won't discuss it anymore. As I said, you have no way of offering any evidence of your view of the natural world. Your posts prove it. Beyond the shadow of a doubt.

mriff 02-25-2009 07:14 AM

Refutation for those who are dumb enough (me) to argue with YEC's about anything scientific.

How Good are those Young-Earth Arguments: Hovind's 'Proofs'

Dawg 02-25-2009 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1298326)
So it's back to your view of my view of my religion. So it's ok if you disagree with your church but not others? How hypocritical. I simply won't discuss it anymore. As I said, you have no way of offering any evidence of your view of the natural world. Your posts prove it. Beyond the shadow of a doubt.

Umm you are the one who said you believe what the church does not me. You said I dont need to write my own because i believe what the church does but now you change your story.

I call that fence riding. I offered evidence you choose not to accept it because it didnt come from some one like you. Hell darwin only had a degree in theology but you accept his opinion why not others please explain that to me.

djm2 02-25-2009 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSanders (Post 1298136)
lol, aren't you are the one most closed-minded poster in this thread who wants any thought other than your own "religion" of science censored from the classroom? Doesn't sound so warm and fuzzy to me.

If by chance you ever succeed in getting the pseudo-science of intelligent design taught in any schools, be sure to publicize it widely. Lots of us will want to have that information to be certain that these specially challenged students aren't admitted to reputable universities, or hired by our companies. And that won't qualify as religious discrimination; we are still allowed to use analytical capabilities as a part of admitttance and hiring decisions.

djm2 02-25-2009 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1298329)
Refutation for those who are dumb enough (me) to argue with YEC's about anything scientific.

How Good are those Young-Earth Arguments: Hovind's 'Proofs'

Well mriff, you know that the issue is that the "proofs" sound so good to the mind that is not trained at scientific reasoning because of the logical falllacies that they employ. I'll take a look at that.

Dawg 02-25-2009 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djm2 (Post 1298351)
If by chance you ever succeed in getting the pseudo-science of intelligent design taught in any schools, be sure to publicize it widely. Lots of us will want to have that information to be certain that these specially challenged students aren't admitted to reputable universities, or hired by our companies. And that won't qualify as religious discrimination; we are still allowed to use analytical capabilities as a part of admitttance and hiring decisions.

wow, you really are close minded aren't you. Does this mean you dont hire people who have gone to Christian University's? Sure sounds like that to me. You must Chinese they dont want Christianity taught either.

mriff 02-25-2009 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1298344)
Umm you are the one who said you believe what the church does not me. You said I dont need to write my own because i believe what the church does but now you change your story.

I challenge you to find where I said that. I simply stated that I support what the church says about evolution. That's ALL I said.

Quote:

I call that fence riding. I offered evidence you choose not to accept it because it didnt come from some one like you. Hell darwin only had a degree in theology but you accept his opinion why not others please explain that to me.
Call it what you want. Doesn't matter. You didn't offer evidence. What you offered is an opinion. There's a difference in case you didn't know. And the fact that Darwin had a degree in theology and then went on to become one of the most learned scientist for his time is very impressive. To say the least!

And by the way, I'm still waiting on the sourse of the information you posted yesterday.

Dawg 02-25-2009 08:54 AM

Riff if you want the information find it. I am sure you have google. You say it my opinion well so was Darwins and I am as qualified as he was at the time. As a matter of fact I am more qualified I have more than one degree.


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