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mriff 02-24-2009 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSanders (Post 1297624)
Post #331 is the one I read.

"What a dangerous idea".

So you deny that fanaticism based on religion has resulted in bad things happening in history?

test54 02-24-2009 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSanders (Post 1297591)
Both, and in each case right won out, and in each case it was Christianity, or the church in general that progressed each cause along it's way.

I guess you're gonna argue those down now?

Yes, I do find it interesting that at first blush you chose to state several negative affects or outcome of fanaticism in the church. And all connected to you and Mriff's lack of understanding. Or refusal. Y'all just seem angry at the church, like you've got a bone to pick and blame it for so many of society's ills. It is so evident reading across this thread.

Given the opportunity, it really seems you will first off blame Christianity.

I guess you see things differently. To say that the right won out and in each case was the Christians is not how I view history at all.
There are several instances where people were killed if they did not follow the chosen faith, to me that is always wrong.

I think your taking the cheap answer in trying to lump me into a category where people have a problem with the church and that is simply not true. I have no issue with anyone unless they try to force their ways upon another. Other than that I have no major issues. To me its about core faiths, not the peripheral views.

but to each there own, unless your Jsanders or dawg then your going to hell.

test54 02-24-2009 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297634)
So you deny that fanaticism based on religion has resulted in bad things happening in history?

the way i read him is that Christians always win and they have not been wrong in their past actions. No wonder the word fanatic strikes up conversation.

Dawg 02-24-2009 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297632)
Post 311 Dawg, post 311. I have answered your question. Multiple times. And I'm ignoring your continued nasty comments against Catholocism.

Your turn.

well I'll just take that as you deny Gods hand in anything. Since most Christians have no issue talking about God.

JSanders 02-24-2009 04:22 PM

Hey, read your post again. #331. You did not say "What a dangerous idea" to fanaticism, blah blah blah. You said it reference to test54's interpretation of what Dawg said.

And then there was a '.', and a new sentence that continued on about other religions. Maybe you could read it again as you wrote it. Your first reference was the Christianity, you ended the sentence, and proceeded off that path.

Yes, fanaticism has caused problems historically and presently. Fanaticism over anything causes problems, including fanaticism over evolution. Fanaticism over Barak Hussein Obama will cause problems.

Dawg 02-24-2009 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by test54 (Post 1297637)
I guess you see things differently. To say that the right won out and in each case was the Christians is not how I view history at all.
There are several instances where people were killed if they did not follow the chosen faith, to me that is always wrong.

I think your taking the cheap answer in trying to lump me into a category where people have a problem with the church and that is simply not true. I have no issue with anyone unless they try to force their ways upon another. Other than that I have no major issues. To me its about core faiths, not the peripheral views.

but to each there own, unless your Jsanders or dawg then your going to hell.

Your only going to hell if you deny God. Or do not accept him as your personal savior.

test54 02-24-2009 04:23 PM

you failed to mention fanaticism of Christianity? does that not exist or is it justifiable because its what you believe?

mriff 02-24-2009 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1297645)
well I'll just take that as you deny Gods hand in anything. Since most Christians have no issue talking about God.

My God, what will it take Dawg?! I answered your question as you asked. It is clearly outlined in the post I've already made. I do NOT deny Gods hand in anything. Please go back and read the post.

Now, about that credible evidence that the great flood deposited every fossil ever known to man. Oh hell, never mind.

test54 02-24-2009 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1297649)
Your only going to hell if you deny God. Or do not accept him as your personal savior.

thanks, learned that when I was 5. Thats why I am conformable with my own views and beliefs. I believe that the gift of Free Will is given for a reason, but thats a whole other topic.

ps, mriff - I think dawg is just egging you on at this point. Jsanders is a different story.

mriff 02-24-2009 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSanders (Post 1297646)
Hey, read your post again. #331. You did not say "What a dangerous idea" to fanaticism, blah blah blah. You said it reference to test54's interpretation of what Dawg said.

And then there was a '.', and a new sentence that continued on about other religions. Maybe you could read it again as you wrote it. Your first reference was the Christianity, you ended the sentence, and proceeded off that path.

Yes, fanaticism has caused problems historically and presently. Fanaticism over anything causes problems, including fanaticism over evolution. Fanaticism over Barak Hussein Obama will cause problems.

I stand by the sentence. Fanaticism within Christianity has caused many problems throughout history. And as you rightly point out, it has caused much good throughout history, including in this day and age. There, will that work?

mriff 02-24-2009 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by test54 (Post 1297654)
ps, mriff - I think dawg is just egging you on at this point. Jsanders is a different story.

It's a common tactic. I've seen it many many times.

Dawg 02-24-2009 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297653)
My God, what will it take Dawg?! I answered your question as you asked. It is clearly outlined in the post I've already made. I do NOT deny Gods hand in anything. Please go back and read the post.

Now, about that credible evidence that the great flood deposited every fossil ever known to man. Oh hell, never mind.

I beg to difer, you believe we came from nothing, that God didnt make us. So therefore you deny Gods hand in creation.

JSanders 02-24-2009 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by test54 (Post 1297637)
I have no issue with anyone unless they try to force their ways upon another.

Christianity is a personal choice. Some have taken it to the extreme.

But, you both are learned men and quite educated. You know that God and Christ both made the path quite narrow, and in one direction toward them. I am sure one could interpret the Bible to have it say what they want in order to deny that, but God and Christ made it very very clear their intention was to turn hearts toward them, and it is very very clear that it is a personal choice.

I'm certainly not a fanatic. Just a believer. You can make the choice on your eternal life on your own.

mriff 02-24-2009 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawg (Post 1297667)
I beg to difer, you believe we came from nothing, that God didnt make us. So therefore you deny Gods hand in creation.

Wanted to make it easy on you Dawg. Went back and got it. Here it is. It is my answer. You don't have to agree with it. But be a man and hold up your end of the bargain. Answer my question. (I won't hold my breath.)

The Catholic Position

What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that manís body developed from previous biological forms, under Godís guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matteró[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

mriff 02-24-2009 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSanders (Post 1297668)
Christianity is a personal choice. Some have taken it to the extreme.

JS, I have said this many times in this thread. I agree completely. It is up to the person to worship in the way he thinks best. You have summed it up in one sentence.

test54 02-24-2009 04:42 PM

Of course that is the very basics of Christian Faith, but there are many different ways to end up at the final stop. To me you have people ranging from the Catholics, Episcopal all the way to the Baptist and Lutheran all with very different traits but with the same core beliefs. So to me the path can take different shapes but all that follow the core faith can get there. That may be a liberal way of viewing it to some but that is my personal belief.

To say that because one denomination has a few different traditions that all of its believers are doomed is not something I would ever believe.

you never answered #347. Like all religions, Christians have done horrible things in the name of their religion and to think its a just act is just wrong to me.

Dawg 02-24-2009 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mriff (Post 1297676)
Wanted to make it easy on you Dawg. Went back and got it. Here it is. It is my answer. You don't have to agree with it. But be a man and hold up your end of the bargain. Answer my question. (I won't hold my breath.)

The Catholic Position

What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that manís body developed from previous biological forms, under Godís guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matteró[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

I dont want the Churchs Stance I want yours in your own words. Unless your not a free thinker.

I can post a position from my Church as well but that doesnt make it my belief. I am not a lemming and don't go along with everything my Church says.

JSanders 02-24-2009 04:47 PM

Well, the Bible does describe very nicely what God enjoys... and while there are many forms of worship, it is specific about a few. So it really is more to discovering what God likes and doing so.

For instance, if your wife despises roses and flowers, but tells you specifically "I like chocolate", so come birthday, anniversary, christmas and any day of the week, your personal choice is to bring home flowers and lovely roses. But no chocolate.

How do you think your wife will react?

Perhaps she says all she really really wants is to spend time with you. But the spouse works 14 hours a day, sleeps eight and the other two glued to the TV. How do you think she will react?

So, God has told us how he desires our relationship with Him, and what he enjoys. All the same.

JSanders 02-24-2009 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by test54 (Post 1297682)
you never answered #347.

You never read Post #345.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSanders
Yes, fanaticism has caused problems historically and presently.


test54 02-24-2009 04:58 PM

That brings us back to the interpretation of the Bible. Obviously every denomination bases there rituals and beliefs in the Bible yet there are such huge differences. Take the Amish, Mennonites or some of the denominations of the past like the Millerites or many others, they all have difference and base themselves on their interpretation of the Bible.
But they still have the core beliefs in common.

It has less to do with the Roses or the chocolate, its all about being there to give the gift to her.

and regarding 345, I would substitute atrocities for problems.


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