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Old 09-23-2009, 09:20 AM   #1
Fletchi18
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Default Was the 'Cash for Clunkers' really worth it?

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I'm not sure if this needs to be in the Sensitive area, but it is somewhat political, so I thought I'd be safe...

Was the 'Cash for Clunkers' program really that successful? And is it really doing anything to reduce emissions?

Think about this: how much energy went into the manufacturing of the vehicle? Mining the metals, molding them, manufacturing the plastics, paints, electrical equipment.

Then compare that to the savings that we're seeing in mileage: some got a rebate for only a 4 mpg difference. Is that really going to make *that* much of a difference?

Now, what do we do with all of the cars that were turned in? How much energy needs to go into disposing or recycling them?

I just think this is just another sham program that had good intentions but Washington completely sucked any possibility of any good coming out of it.
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:55 AM   #2
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I don't know about the effectiveness of the program in general, but we took advantage of it and it's made a big difference to us. Went from an 18 mpg mini-SUV to a 30 mpg small car, and although I'm not sure how many miles we average per week (commuting, running kids around, etc.), DH says our monthly gas expenses have gone down $75 per month as a result.
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:01 AM   #3
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To quote a friend:

"I am waiting for the Cash for Cars That Have Been Devalued Because the Auto Maker Has Been Bailed Out Which I Also Had To Pay For Program".
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Old 09-23-2009, 10:17 AM   #4
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But have you factored in the fact that the IRS is expecting you to pay taxes on the rebates?
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:04 AM   #5
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Wirelessly posted

The money should have went towards mass transit projects not pay for a soccer mom to trade in her overkill of an suv for a prius
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:07 AM   #6
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The money should have been returned to the taxpayers and not spent on any failing federal government program...

Oh well, I can dream.
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by The_conductor View Post
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The money should have went towards mass transit projects not pay for a soccer mom to trade in her overkill of an suv for a prius
good idea. I also Like JSanders idea as well - both better options.
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:39 AM   #8
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They probably went about it the completely wrong way, but I still took advantage of it.
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_conductor View Post
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The money should have went towards mass transit projects not pay for a soccer mom to trade in her overkill of an suv for a prius
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSanders View Post
The money should have been returned to the taxpayers and not spent on any failing federal government program...

Oh well, I can dream.
I agree with both of these statements. Public transportation needs reworked in America. It works well in Europe and could work well here if we would implement a working system.
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Old 09-23-2009, 01:36 PM   #10
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Cash for clunkers is a good idea because it drops the price of an automobile, wich means that that salesman keeps his job, the "clunker" is traded in and scrapped and that creates work for people in steel production that can be used for other vehicles as well. The way I see it, Obama just invested that money to let you get an affordable, safe, reliable vehicle to get to where we need to go, save some money and create jobs all in one... MHO
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdsguru View Post
Cash for clunkers is a good idea because it drops the price of an automobile, wich means that that salesman keeps his job, the "clunker" is traded in and scrapped and that creates work for people in steel production that can be used for other vehicles as well. The way I see it, Obama just invested that money to let you get an affordable, safe, reliable vehicle to get to where we need to go, save some money and create jobs all in one... MHO
omg are you serious?
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:52 PM   #12
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Look at it anther way. This program took 95% of the Obama/Biden bumper stickers off the road!
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:51 PM   #13
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Leaders from the independent aftermarket were among the most vocal against the program, and they continue to be so after the fact. As, CARQUEST's Pete Kornafel, chairman of the GAAS scholarship committee, writes:

Here's some math from your stories ballyhooing the fact that the average clunker got 15 mpg and the average replacement gets 25.
  • A vehicle at 15 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 800 gallons a year of gasoline.
  • A vehicle at 25 mpg and 12,000 miles per year uses 480 gallons a year.
  • So, an average clunker transaction reduces U.S. gasoline consumption by 320 gallons per year.
  • The total is about 700,000 vehicles - so that's 224 million gallons/year.
  • That equates to a bit over 5 million barrels of oil.
  • 5 million barrels of oil is about < of one day's U.S. consumption.
  • And, 5 million barrels of oil costs about $350 million dollars at $75/bbl.
  • So, we all contributed to spending $3 billion to save $350 million.
How good a deal was that?

Plus, of the $3 billion spent on the C4C program, only about $1.2 billion went to the dealers... the other $1.8 billion was in administrative costs and waste... simply amazing government program we got there... and the whole $3 billion gets added to the already enormous national debt.
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubdub View Post
Look at it anther way. This program took 95% of the Obama/Biden bumper stickers off the road!
well then, it was a good deal
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by fonejunkie View Post
Here's some math from your stories ballyhooing the fact that the average clunker got 15 mpg and the average replacement gets 25.
Where are those statistics from?

Again, as I said before, did you include the cost in energy resources what it took to manufacture the vehicle?
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Old 09-25-2009, 12:32 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fonejunkie View Post
  • So, we all contributed to spending $3 billion to save $350 million.
How good a deal was that?

Plus, of the $3 billion spent on the C4C program, only about $1.2 billion went to the dealers... the other $1.8 billion was in administrative costs and waste... simply amazing government program we got there... and the whole $3 billion gets added to the already enormous national debt.
While I am not a fan of the "Cash For Clunkers" program, I am even less of a fan of inaccurate summations for the benefit of argument.

The statement "spending $3 billion to save $350 million" is misleading and only speaks to the savings or net result in regard to the Fuel Savings by way of vehicle efficiency. The balance sheet, while most certainly negative, is far more complex then this summation.

Please quote a source for your "only about $1.2 billion went to dealers", as I am sure it offers a concise breakdown of the remaining $1.8 billion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_conductor View Post
The money should have went towards mass transit projects not pay for a soccer mom to trade in her overkill of an suv for a prius
While not part of this specific program, Ohio's High Speed Rail project is finally seeing some money:

http://www.urbancincy.com/2009/02/oh...ail-plans.html
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Old 09-25-2009, 03:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun View Post
While I am not a fan of the "Cash For Clunkers" program, I am even less of a fan of inaccurate summations for the benefit of argument.

The statement "spending $3 billion to save $350 million" is misleading and only speaks to the savings or net result in regard to the Fuel Savings by way of vehicle efficiency. The balance sheet, while most certainly negative, is far more complex then this summation.

Please quote a source for your "only about $1.2 billion went to dealers", as I am sure it offers a concise breakdown of the remaining $1.8 billion.


While not part of this specific program, Ohio's High Speed Rail project is finally seeing some money:

UrbanCincy: Ohio's high-speed rail plans

And I agree that the "spending $3 B to save $350 M" may be misleading on some level, it accurately speaks to the obscene levels of waste. Just like the TARP bill that had to be passed right away (without even allowing time for Congress to READ the bill)... and the Cash for Clunkers... and National Health Care "reform", etc ad nauseum... too much ramming stuff through as a knee-jerk reaction.

Here's a source... $1.22 B paid out... cost of the plan $2.88 B LaHood: Gov't paid dealers $1.2B for 'Clunkers' - Yahoo! News

Last edited by fonejunkie; 09-25-2009 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:47 PM   #18
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All this program did is pull sales forward. Sales went from an annualized rate of 14 million units during the program to 9 million units in Septemer.

Even worse it was another example of rewarding those who made bad choices before. Even though I can afford higher gas prices, I chose a car that gets good gas mileage instead of an SUV when I bought my car in 2000. I just couldn't justify using that much extra gas since almost all my miles were for commuting. So like the homeowner bailouts, I'm paying taxes that have been handed to someone else who made bad choices.

"GM, Ford, Toyota Report Sales Declines as 'Clunkers' Ends"
US Auto Sales: GM, Ford, Toyota Report Sales Declines as 'Clunkers' Ends - Automotive * US * News * Story - CNBC.com
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Old 10-04-2009, 03:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by monkeypaw View Post
All this program did is pull sales forward. Sales went from an annualized rate of 14 million units during the program to 9 million units in Septemer.

Even worse it was another example of rewarding those who made bad choices before. Even though I can afford higher gas prices, I chose a car that gets good gas mileage instead of an SUV when I bought my car in 2000. I just couldn't justify using that much extra gas since almost all my miles were for commuting. So like the homeowner bailouts, I'm paying taxes that have been handed to someone else who made bad choices.

"GM, Ford, Toyota Report Sales Declines as 'Clunkers' Ends"
US Auto Sales: GM, Ford, Toyota Report Sales Declines as 'Clunkers' Ends - Automotive * US * News * Story - CNBC.com
That's kind of what I thought about it too. It's really borrowing from future sales. Instead of waiting to buy a car, people were given an incentive to buy one now. It did some of the things promised but when the incentive disappears car buying will slow to a crawl. Not to mention bailing people out of bad choices; that shouldn't be the government's job.
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Old 10-06-2009, 08:38 AM   #20
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I don't think it was intended for people that made bad decisions, not in every case anyways. It helped me out personally because I had an older car that I bought as a teenager, it was something I could realisticly afford and pay off, which I did. It wasn't a bad choice for me to buy something I could afford was it? I actually went with the cheapest car I could find with Cash for Clunkers too, because I like to buy things I can afford and not be in debt for ages for. I'm sure a lot of people used this as an excuse to get something that wasn't a giant SUV, but some people were actually helped out by this program.

If you want to talk about programs that help out people that made bad choices look at the stuff that's been running forever like welfare and food stamps. You'll pay taxes on that forever. And there's people that are actually helped by that as well. I'm not saying Cash for Clunkers was a great idea but it does have a helpful side. The problem is that the government can't take it on a case by case basis to see if someone actually needs it or not, it has to be generalized because so many people are using it. I say you can't blame the bad decision people for taking advantage of it, they are how they are, you should blame the government for not regulating it properly.
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