[rontiu]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

RIM is not blindly designing devices ignorant of what the markplace wants. They know very well who the Torch users are. And just because it isn't the best device for you, that doesn't mean it isn't the best device for someone.

And obviously you do not get market surveys from RIM. I'm sure many here get them all the time like I do.

RIM is paying attention.

Surveys, are different than having an "advisory board" where real life, die hard, totally devoted committee members, shape the future for a supplier/vendor, in this case RIM, for the better by providing insights, wishes and very relevant feedback, by meeting senior officers and the best of the best subject matter experts at RIM.

Committee members are a diversed bunch of people, from the tech blogger/guru, to the Fortune 100 CIO, consumer marketing experts, etc. Maybe RIM has one already, most Fortune companies do....I simply don't understand how RIM was able to position the TORCH as the flagship in its current state, with the current state of applications truly supporting the OS6.

Bottomline, I think RIM created the device in their own vaccuum, based on the restrictions they set out for whatever reasons, cost, supply constraint (if they want a new processor/OLED screen, I am sure competition is hot against the HTC, Apple and Samsung, Sony of the world...)....

RIM was not a total sleeper, as a matter of fact, the launch of the latest Desktop Manager was nice...it gave the new Torch a nice push to add a little bit of more sophistication, to round up the "upgrade", but I feel it was half hearted.

I feel personally they should have pushed out a 9800 in a 9700 form factor, loaded OS6 with 512 or 1gb memory, improved GPS, WLAN and processor..just a little.....and push out a Torch 10k at a later stage with all the whistle...1gb memory, best screen ever, best device software from the get go, loaded up on Viigo and docs to go.....and any other true Torch written apps! true leather or ostrich leather backing...taking advantage of the OS6...and launch it as a limited edition first....

Sell the limited editition as the most premium blackberry ever (which would be deserved) and launch a second torch with a scaled down memory, fake leather, etc.. as the more widely availalble Torch.

This way, the 9700 form factor which looks like everybody does like (or 9650)...RIM can test drive the OS6 on a proven form factor and fine tune the OS6 for the Torch...

What we have now is a mess...new form factor and a new OS6, both unproven, first round roll out..we know that there learnings to be learned from...

I want RIM to succeed... ...I really do...it just seems that RIM needs to be align with folks who can provide clarity on the path RIM must go on.....

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by rontiu

Surveys, are different than having an "advisory board" where real life, die hard, totally devoted committee members, shape the future for a supplier/vendor, in this case RIM, for the better by providing insights, wishes and very relevant feedback, by meeting senior officers and the best of the best subject matter experts at RIM.

Committee members are a diversed bunch of people, from the tech blogger/guru, to the Fortune 100 CIO, consumer marketing experts, etc. Maybe RIM has one already, most Fortune companies do....I simply don't understand how RIM was able to position the TORCH as the flagship in its current state, with the current state of applications truly supporting the OS6.

Bottomline, I think RIM created the device in their own vaccuum, based on the restrictions they set out for whatever reasons, cost, supply constraint (if they want a new processor/OLED screen, I am sure competition is hot against the HTC, Apple and Samsung, Sony of the world...)....

RIM was not a total sleeper, as a matter of fact, the launch of the latest Desktop Manager was nice...it gave the new Torch a nice push to add a little bit of more sophistication, to round up the "upgrade", but I feel it was half hearted.

I feel personally they should have pushed out a 9800 in a 9700 form factor, loaded OS6 with 512 or 1gb memory, improved GPS, WLAN and processor..just a little.....and push out a Torch 10k at a later stage with all the whistle...1gb memory, best screen ever, best device software from the get go, loaded up on Viigo and docs to go.....and any other true Torch written apps! true leather or ostrich leather backing...taking advantage of the OS6...and launch it as a limited edition first....

Sell the limited editition as the most premium blackberry ever (which would be deserved) and launch a second torch with a scaled down memory, fake leather, etc.. as the more widely availalble Torch.

This way, the 9700 form factor which looks like everybody does like (or 9650)...RIM can test drive the OS6 on a proven form factor and fine tune the OS6 for the Torch...

What we have now is a mess...new form factor and a new OS6, both unproven, first round roll out..we know that there learnings to be learned from...

I want RIM to succeed... ...I really do...it just seems that RIM needs to be align with folks who can provide clarity on the path RIM must go on.....

I don't know that RIM is not doing those things, or at least the equivalent of those things. For all I know, the surveys I receive from RIM marketing are just one facet of the research RIM is conducting.

What gets me is the general gripe heard here that RIM doesn't listen, etc, when what it seems to me is the forum member is mad that RIM isn't giving them what they are asking for, that RIM isn't listening to [b]them[/].

I don't believe RIM is working in the proverbial vacuum, but, yes, they have their priorities, their constraints, and their ideas about their product. That doesn't satisfy everybody, and a few come here and rant.

But that's all fine if you are somewhere where hardware manufacturers and service providers are competing for your business. If RIM doesn't do it for you, use something else.
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[sean76]

@ alharkness...You reading way to deep into this, with survey reports and if you don't like it use something else phrases. I'm a die hard Blackberry user, and I'll most likely always use one. But I have 2 devices, one for personal use, which is an HTC EVO, and my berry for business. If I didn't need to have 2 lines, my EVO would be capable of holding down the job as my one business and personal device. If your blind to the fact that RIM is loosing people left and right, that's your business. They are nowhere near the buzz they were a year or two ago. Use this forum for example, a lot, and I mean a lot of regular forum members are gone, and have gone on to other devices that use another OS. Android is dominating the market right now, and taking a lot of Blackberry users with them. I would really like to see RIM put something out to compete, but we all know RIM does what it wants. And that's fine, like I said I have my berry for various reasons. But what about the person that does not want 2 devices, or simply can't afford it? What does that guy do? I think we all know the answer to that!
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[andrej770]

The majority of RIM's customers are governments, municipalities and states. Yeah, they have the models we (consumers) use, but their biggest users are still in government and all these great "consumer-centric" features that people want, are not really what RIM's core customers are specifically asking for. Keep that in mind. The DoD could careless about media or cameras or sliding keyboards and they are not making purchasing decisions based on those features. So remember RIM has to balance its devices between government adoption rates AND consumer adoption (feature requests). No other device has the marketshare with governments around the world like RIM. So, from my perspective, yes, if RIM is really trying to compete in the consumer space with the iPhones and Android devices, they will have to step things up abit (for those models). But I understand that, though they want to compete in that space, their bread and butter is NOT in that space and their attention to that space will be understandably less than Apple and Google. Where do you hear the government of any country adopting Android phones or iPhones for their workforces? You don't. (Yet!) RIM has a good lock on that (steady income). I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything previously said, but its important to remember what RIM made its money off in the past and where they will continue to place the majority of their focus; and in my opinion - rightfully so. Hoping that RIM will come out with an iPhone killer is a fantasy. IMHO

[aiharkness]

Look, I'm not reading too much into anything. People make comments to the effect that RIM isn't listening. I disagree and mention the market surveys as an example, but not to imply that is all RIM does or all that they need to do. Yet I'm called on it. That's bunk.

Do I doubt that RIM is doing what any other world class outfit is doing to identify what the marketplace needs and wants and measure its successes and failures? No. I have no doubt.

Do I know RIM is losing customers left and right? I don't really care, but I'm not surprised that some customers try something new when something new comes out, just as I am not surprised when people who have used something else switch to the blackberry, and some people who have switched to something else eventually return to the blackberry. I don't think the blackberry has been that popular with so-called consumers except for what seemed like a huge spike when the 8100 came out. But I don't dwell on it.

Do I think there can be one device for everyone such that they don't need to carry two or more? Well, for me, yeah. I'm on my 4th blackberry and never had the need or desire to carry something else as well. But I'm curious why it is always the blackberry that is at fault in this regard? Why isn't it the iphone or the "droid" that must change to be able to be that one device that does everything?

What is the meaning of the word compete as people who use it here mean it? You would really like RIM to put out something to compete? What does that mean?

I think RIM is competing. When I and others say to use something else if you don't like blackberry, all we are saying is RIM is competing on matters that don't line up with your needs a desires. If blackberry doesn't meet my needs, that is what I'll do, switch to something else. And I won't whine about it.

I really truly believe RIM is trying to sell a different product and convince more and more users why it is the better product. But it isn't going to be the better product for everyone. You can argue where they are falling down, but I don't think you can say they are not constantly assessing user needs and determining where they are succeeding and where they are coming up short. They are in business to make lots and lots of money. Do they make mistakes? Yeah, they all do. But that doesn't mean they are operating in a vacuum.
Posted via BlackBerryForums.com Mobile

[rontiu]

I wonder if "complacency" is perpaps a better definition where RIM is at this point in life.

Don't hand out the freaking BB's at celebrity events or sponsor a John Mayer concert, if you are not going after the consumer which in fact they are.

There is/was so much research available that predicted the change in the smartphone world, and I am sure RIM read the same material when Google planned on the Android phone.

Look in Europe, recently, a german goverment went againts a recommendation of using blackberry as the preferred smart phone. The bottomline - nothing is forever.

RIM does have a curse, the efficiency of the blackberry network which should appeal to operator but also the stigma of the high security. Why the PR machine is somehow not better on that issue (operators must love blackberry as they use less bandwidth, and users gotta love the "better' privacy")....to make it the device of choice due to those two reasons, I don't know.

BB tablets anyone?

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by andrej770

The majority of RIM's customers are governments, municipalities and states. Yeah, they have the models we (consumers) use, but their biggest users are still in government and all these great "consumer-centric" features that people want, are not really what RIM's core customers are specifically asking for. Keep that in mind. The DoD could careless about media or cameras or sliding keyboards and they are not making purchasing decisions based on those features. So remember RIM has to balance its devices between government adoption rates AND consumer adoption (feature requests). No other device has the marketshare with governments around the world like RIM. So, from my perspective, yes, if RIM is really trying to compete in the consumer space with the iPhones and Android devices, they will have to step things up abit (for those models). But I understand that, though they want to compete in that space, their bread and butter is NOT in that space and their attention to that space will be understandably less than Apple and Google. Where do you hear the government of any country adopting Android phones or iPhones for their workforces? You don't. (Yet!) RIM has a good lock on that (steady income). I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything previously said, but its important to remember what RIM made its money off in the past and where they will continue to place the majority of their focus; and in my opinion - rightfully so. Hoping that RIM will come out with an iPhone killer is a fantasy. IMHO

Except a company or a corporation in a competitite economy is not like an individual. Maybe you are happy with the income and growth potential you had 10 years ago, but RIM must deliver a return on investment, the more the better, and certainly at least as much as "the other guy." In that I agree with others. RIM has to grow. It can't sit back and say, Well, we still have DoD and the Bundesbank and all that. The so-called consumer user is where the potential is at, and why RIM does care about it.
Posted via BlackBerryForums.com Mobile

[sean76]

I think we all have Valid points, and I look at this as a friendly talk about something we all pretty much like..Which is our Blackberry! What I would really like to see is a Torch like device with maybe better build quality, better screen resolution, and a faster processer, just to name a few. I think they could also do really well with a Bold like device with a touch screen, and maybe a slightly larger screen. Everything else is fine, the keyboards are great, and the camera is just fine. The mega pixel wars are a waste to me, if I want a really awesome shot I'll use my point and shoot. Overall I'm a fairly happy blackberry user, I just feel that they can put out something better then the Torch, and really grab a strangle hold on the device wars. As I said earlier, its my business phone of choice, and it will continue to be as long as their in business for the most part.
Posted via BlackBerryForums.com Mobile

[rontiu]

Originally Posted by sean76

I think we all have Valid points, and I look at this as a friendly talk about something we all pretty much like..Which is our Blackberry! What I would really like to see is a Torch like device with maybe better build quality, better screen resolution, and a faster processer, just to name a few. I think they could also do really well with a Bold like device with a touch screen, and maybe a slightly larger screen. Everything else is fine, the keyboards are great, and the camera is just fine. The mega pixel wars are a waste to me, if I want a really awesome shot I'll use my point and shoot. Overall I'm a fairly happy blackberry user, I just feel that they can put out something better then the Torch, and really grab a strangle hold on the device wars. As I said earlier, its my business phone of choice, and it will continue to be as long as their in business for the most part.
Posted via BlackBerryForums.com Mobile

We are all very passionate about our BB Toys, and I think indeed we all have raised valid points. Just give us a little bit more of "Blackberry Power/Goodies"...a sprinkle, and I think it can make a lot of people happy

I am just scared that there will be a Torch 2....shortly!, because Torch 1 was the test device...a pre-halloween "gotscha" surprise! and the true mind blowing device...is available just before the holidays...I know, wishful thinking!

[werty5926]

Keyboard shortcuts don't work on mine. Wonder why?

[mookia]

I found a solution... be able to use your shortcut keys, Options>Display>Home Screen Preferences>Launch by Typing change to Application Shortcuts -
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[mookia]

Hi I want to change my attitude toward my heart BB. I neglected a bit about my new Torch. I realize Torch is first invention of combination of touch screen and physical keyboard and it is normally awkward. It takes time to evovle and learn many things. It helps people deciding which device is best for them. I still learn how to use touchscreen and seem to improve it on virtual keyboard. It takes lot of time to determine and like it.
Remember u can always switch to different bb models if u want to. I know I'll keep this or switch to my husband's 9650 (similar to 9700 but more memory).
I have my bb for many yrs the first time I got was 7230 after little wyndtell. I thank to champ blackberry device ever I have. Smacks to bb Blueberry" yummyyyyy. Say it "I love blackberry*blueberry" la la da da do do do!!! LOL
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[Pete777]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

RIM is paying attention.

Not so sure about that. There are countless BB9000 users on this and other boards (myself included) who have been asking and waiting for RIM to come out with a device with the form factor of a 9000 yet with the memory, track pad, etc. of a Torch or even a 9700.

Seriously, if RIM came out with something like that it would fly out of the stores (obviously it would be targeted more for the business user). We're not looking for sliders or fancy stuff like that. Just a well built device with a usable keyboard and enough memory to run all the applications we need to run to be productive.

But with the new 9780 on the horizon (with a 9700 form factor no less) It still doesn't look like RIM is listening to us.

[NJBlackBerry]

And probably just as many who disliked the 9000 form factor...
So maybe RIM is listening to me and not to you?

Seriously, they can't build every device that every consumer wants. It just won't happen. Compromises have to be made.

I'm sticking with the 9700 for now.

[aiharkness]

Originally Posted by Pete777

Not so sure about that. There are countless BB9000 users on this and other boards (myself included) who have been asking and waiting for RIM to come out with a device with the form factor of a 9000 yet with the memory, track pad, etc. of a Torch or even a 9700.

Seriously, if RIM came out with something like that it would fly out of the stores (obviously it would be targeted more for the business user). We're not looking for sliders or fancy stuff like that. Just a well built device with a usable keyboard and enough memory to run all the applications we need to run to be productive.

But with the new 9780 on the horizon (with a 9700 form factor no less) It still doesn't look like RIM is listening to us.

Countless, huh? Show me the data.

Doesn't mean anything just because RIM doesn't respond to the demands of YOU and OTHERS YOU KNOW.

Even still, countless others could be asking for something, like an iphone with a blackberry logo on it, doesn't mean RIM is going to deliver. And it wouldn't equal RIM not paying attention.

[Pete777]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

Countless, huh? Show me the data.

Just check the BB9000 forums on Crackberry as well. Theres plenty of data.

Personally, I am done waiting. Despite some of the negatives I see people write about the Torch, it seems like a really good device - I'll probably pick one up in the next few days. Tired of sacrificing applications for the lack of memory. The 9000 has far superior keyboard and speakers, but the Torch has the track pad and the memory space to allow me to do what I used to do on my old Palm 650 and Blackjack.

Sometimes we just have to adapt.....

Regards!

[aiharkness]

Sheesh. Forum memeber's opinions, while not nothing, is a small fraction of total users, and not necessarily representative of most users. Plus, people are more likely to post to complain or ask aout a problem. Forum member posts are not THE data.
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[mmcpher]

I'm a big Torch fan, after using it about a month every waking hour of every day. RIM has done a very nice job, particularly when they had a radically new form factor (for RIM) at the same time as a major OS revamp. Fraught with peril, but RIM seems to have navigated safely through those dangerous waters. If the Torch didn't blow everyone's doors off right out of the gate, a lot of the quibbles immediately following its launch seem, a month out, just that, quibbles. I don't hear from many people complaining about the screen resolution. It has made absolutely no difference to me. Even with the disappointing processor speed (a more serious criticism), it hasn't proved to be a major inconvenience. When and if you get around to upgrading the OS, you may find, as I have, that the Torch zips along even faster than at first.

Almost every program I'm running runs better on the Torch than on my previous BB's (Bold II, Bold, Curve, etc). Faster and more fully functioning than before. And the transition of applications from old to new device was easier than ever before, which was very surprising, given that I was moving for the first time to a touch screen and a new OS. One frustration has been the "unavailability" of certain programs for the Torch or for 6.0. Of all the apps I had been using, so far I've only come across one that flat won't work on the Torch. Otherwise, even when the app developer says the Bold version won't work on the Torch, I've found that it does. Which makes the lag in releasing updated apps more aggravating. Also, the way apps available on Blackberry App World won't let you download and install at your own risk, and how those apps also tend to be hard to get as files that can be accessed and loaded through your PC. Blackberry and Blackberry App World have done a poor job of informing and promoting 6.0-ready apps generally.

The greatest success on the Torch is the synergistic way the touch screen, track pad and keyboard work together. Its the Torch Sweet Spot. I do expect that RIM may well improve on the Torch. All things equal, I would like more processor, and just a little more screen, even if it makes the thing a little larger in your hand. On the other hand, I had my Torch with me at a dinner the other night, and a few Bold and Tour users wanted to see it and play with it awhile. The first thing they did was to compare its size to their existing models which was apparently important to them in ways I couldn't figure.

[dlsanders1957]

I got my new Torch about a week ago after having a 3GS iPhone for over a year. I had 4 BB's prior to my 3GS and i liked the switch at first because I'm a Mac user. Over time I got pretty bored with the iPhone and it's limitations as far as email, messaging and organizer capabilities. I am more than pleased with the functionality of the Torch so far and have no real complaints with anything I have used it for. I do hope the AppWorld catches up with the OS 6 apps and the themes for the 9800 soon.

[Maksa]

@Rockefella

thanks for sharing your own honest review. Now i am waiting for my 9800