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Old 11-24-2010, 02:22 PM   #41
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

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I think this whole change boils down to the authorities getting credible evidence of some kind of a plot on or before the November 1 time frame. Nothing has been said about this in the media, but obviously something changed that required a full pat down, at least in the eyes of security experts. The problem is that explosives can be hidden from metal detectors now. So what do we do? Nothing? I don't think so. Our hand has been forced. We HAVE to try to stop any attacks any way we can. If that means I go through a body scanner at the airport to board and fly on a 'gas filled metal tube', then so be it.
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Old 11-24-2010, 02:39 PM   #42
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aiharkness View Post
The issue is many people--if you trust the polls it's apparently 60+ percent--believe it is wrong. I'd go so far as to say these people would say it is un-American and akin to what they would expect in a police state, if they had been asked.

We can argue the legality of it and all, but people have a strong sense of what is good and right, and that's what it all boils down to in the end.

I think there is also a broad sense that it is misguided and ineffective as well to seemly treat everyone the same instead of finding the dangerous people and keeping them from the plane.

The argument that you should have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide is very offensive to a lot of people who think deeper than you on the subject of their rights. They know you have to stand up for yourself even when it seems a small matter, or it won't matter when the issue becomes a big one.
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Well thought out post. Thanks. I wonder how the traveling American citizen would react to Isreali style airport security. It seems to me that we have come up with a solution that doesn't impead on ones race as a means of security, but doesn't necessarily protect ones "privates". You privacy has not been violated, they (the TSA agent) don't know you name or any data that could be used against you when you are being scanned. "Scan Everyone", then no one can come out and say they picked me out of the line because of the way i looked. God forbid we go back to offending people based on race or the way they look.

I honestly don't know what the answer is except that we need to keep the bad guys off of planes and further more out of this country.
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:15 PM   #43
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Focusing on people doesn't mean focusing on race. It is in part using what is already open information on people, such as what was known about the failed panty bomber before he got on the plain (search).

I would say what I've heard about the Israeli methods is perfectly reasonable. I've been through something like it, probably, where I was interviewed, the interviewer asked questions while looking me right in the eye the entire time. I know the interviewer was looking at my behavior and testing if my story was straight and if I could keep it straight. And I'm sure someone else had already screened me based on my public record and made sure me the person there with the ticket was the same as the name in the record. I knew that if something didn't fit about me I would be pulled out of line for more investigation. As an American I didn't have a problem with that under the circumstances.

Yeah, sure it's possible for an Anglo to be a terrorist and show up dressed as a nun or with a prosthetic leg that's an explosive device, or whatever. But I've been flying for 30+ years. I fly at least twice a month. There is nothing in my profile that even hints I'm a danger. TSA doesn't need to look at naked pictures of me or stick its hands inside my clothes.

The thing to remember is the panty bomber got on the plane. TSA didn't stop him. So now TSA is looking for the next panty bomber by looking for panty bombers instead of looking for terrorists.

Just my opinion.
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Old 11-24-2010, 03:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

I fly once every blue moon or even less than that so this issue isn't in the fore front of my thinking. That doesn't make it less important, i just don't know enough about it because i don't travel by plane.

That being said i think if i found out that they were scanning the whole Saturn Vue while i passed under some overpass on a highway enroute to Yosemite or Big Bear i might have the same reaction that this issue seems to bring out of some people. I don't know, it hasn't gotten that far yet.

That being said i see your point from your previous post when you said,
Quote:
They know you have to stand up for yourself even when it seems a small matter, or it won't matter when the issue becomes a big one.
So fight on!
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:23 PM   #45
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Do you remember this quote (Niemöller) about the rise to power of the Nazis:

They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Now I am not trying to equate what is going on with the Nazi party and Hitler, but the issue of protecting our rights against governmental infringement is one that is at least partly applicable.
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:38 AM   #46
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

When the clowns in our government that gave support to the mujuhidene/Taliban during the Russian Afghanistan war are put on trial, convicted and executed as traitors I will take some of this more seriously.

And that is it in a nutshell.
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Old 11-26-2010, 07:51 AM   #47
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmead View Post
Well thought out post. Thanks. I wonder how the traveling American citizen would react to Isreali style airport security. It seems to me that we have come up with a solution that doesn't impead on ones race as a means of security, but doesn't necessarily protect ones "privates". You privacy has not been violated, they (the TSA agent) don't know you name or any data that could be used against you when you are being scanned. "Scan Everyone", then no one can come out and say they picked me out of the line because of the way i looked. God forbid we go back to offending people based on race or the way they look.

I honestly don't know what the answer is except that we need to keep the bad guys off of planes and further more out of this country.
Quote:
If you have nothing to hide what's the big deal? I guess i just don't get it? I hear flying in and out of Isreal is a real xxxxx so i don't know why we americans think this is "unnecessary". Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what is the issue here?

I guess you've never flown out of Ben Gurion then?

I do. It's usually fatser than at US airports. The difference is that they focus on behaviour, and everybody is involved in the process. While you're in line, you may get pulled out and questioned. When checking in, the agent asks you questions, and LOOKS at you. I;ve seen passport control agents engaged in conversations with each other, but they never take their eyes off you. If you observe closely enough, you'll notice even the custodial staff scans the crowd.

The difference? Everybody there takes security seriously, and everybody there is military trained.

While we'd never be able to get the same level of vivilance, hiring better better people, and yes it will cost more, and training them in behavioral analysis would pay off. And every single piece of luggage is hand examined.

Some of what they do won't scale up because of infrastructure. They stop and question every car. Can't do that here. But the security inside is possible. It would require more manpower. It means the flying public will have to give up the $99 NYC-LA return flights.

I'd rather pay more to fly and be safe than to deal with what we have now.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:15 AM   #48
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

I can't figure out a way to link to a comment on CNN's web site, so I'm reposting it here:

Quote:
What they do at the airports doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If you have to be seen or felt naked before you get on a plane in this country and security is police state tight at the airport but trains, buses, subways and everything else remain completely undefended. It's like if you were trying to build a defense around a castle and one wall was HUGE, 300 ft tall, barbed wire, troops defending it 24 hours a day, the whole nine yards - BUT the other three walls were half a foot tall, made out of plywood, and have no one guarding them at all. It would make no sense to do that and it makes no sense how we defend our airports by stripping everyones personal liberties but then not even have any security present at any other public transportation method. If I were a terrorist I wouldn't attack an airplane, I could get just as many people on the train.

So all these people out there who think it is necessary for this invasive behavior you HAVE to be absolutely OUTRAGED at how lax security is everywhere else right? You people must be so scared to get on a subway. I mean they don't see or feel your genitals before you get on a NYC subway, how can we possibly be safe?
ROTFL! Very true!

Original can be found here, at the bottom of this opinion column:

Give thanks for America's common sense - CNN.com
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:26 AM   #49
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

I think there is a high degree of counter-terrorism going on to protect other transportation systems and various infrastructure. The fact that we don't see it doesn't mean it isn't being done. And the fact of it and details of it not being made public is only proper. I see nothing to be surprised or outraged about in that regard, at least so far.

But you can bet when this is turned into a political playing field, you will see the same nonsense and waste even for public transportation in small town America. It will be one size fits all and designed to serve every political interest group and be politically correct.
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:12 PM   #50
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?





It's absolute insanity:


Sanitary Towel Prompts TSA To Grope Sexual Assault Victim


Steve Watson
Prisonplanet.com
Thursday, Nov 25th, 2010

Menstruating women beware. If you intend to travel, your panty-liners are now considered suspicious objects, after all you could be concealing a bomb in there.

The latest insane TSA transgression answers questions that were raised last week when it was revealed naked body scanners can also detect sanitary napkins.

New York Times reporter Joe Sharkey wrote Monday that he was getting a lot of requests for information from female frequent fliers.

“Do the imagers, for example, detect sanitary napkins?” women wanted to know. “Yes,” wrote Sharkey.

“Does that then necessitate a pat-down? The TSA couldn’t say. Screeners, the TSA has said, are expected to exercise some discretion.” the article continued.

“And what about tampons?” asked the blog Feminist Peace Network. “They look kind of like sticks of dynamite. Are they going to ask us to pull them out and show them just to be sure?”

The answer, judging from one woman’s written testimony, seems to be yes.

A customer of popular women’s health company, Gladrags, relayed her recent experience at the hands of the TSA via email.

In short, she was asked to walk through a radiation firing naked body scanner and complied. The scanner produced a naked image of her, but because her sanitary towel was obscuring her most intimate parts from prying eyes, the TSA agents pulled her aside for a full groin search. Not something to be relished by any person, let alone someone who has previously suffered sexual assault.

Here is the woman’s email in full:

“This email isn’t going to be as polished as I would normally send, but I’m upset and I don’t want what happened to me to happen to anyone else (if I can stop it).

I recently traveled via air, and was subjected to that new scanning device. “No problem,” I thought. I was wearing jeans and a linen tanktop, bra, panties, and one camouflage pantyliner.

I’m a rule follower, so I never have any problems at the airport. Not this time. I was stopped, and then held for 15 minutes while they tried to find a female supervisor. I couldn’t get to my bag, my shawl or my shoes; just standing there while the TSA agents kept me in one place.

Now, I don’t want this to be about bad TSA agents; they were doing their job, they were as delicate as they could be, etc., etc. But what ultimately happened is that I was subjected to search so invasive that I was left crying and dealing with memories that I thought had been dealt with years ago of prior sexual assaults.

Why?

Because of my flannel panty-liner. These new scans are so horrible that if you are wearing something unusual (like a piece of cloth on your panties) then you will be subjected to a search where a woman repeatedly has to check your “groin” while another woman watches on (two in my case – they were training in a new girl – awesome).

So please, please, tell the ladies not to wear their liners at the airport (I didn’t even have an insert in). I’m a strong, confident woman; I’m an Army vet (which is why those camo liners crack me up), I work full-time and go to graduate school full-time, I have a wonderful husband, and I don’t take any nonsense from anyone. I don’t dramatize, and I don’t exaggerate. I’m trying to give you a sense of who I am so you won’t think that this is a plea for attention, or a jumping on the bandwagon about the recent TSA proposed boycott.

I just don’t want another woman to have to go through the “patting down” because she didn’t know that her glad-rag would be a matter of national security.”

Chalk up another ritual humiliation at the hands of the TSA, protecting us from terrorists by forcing women to remove their underwear napkins and groping their vaginas in public.

When will this insanity end?

——————————————————————

Steve Watson is the London based writer and editor at Alex Jones’ Infowars.net, and regular contributor to Prisonplanet.com. He has a Masters Degree in International Relations from the School of Politics at The University of Nottingham in England.
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:20 PM   #51
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?




RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINES
Doctors sound TSA germ alert
Dangers include syphilis, lice, viruses, ringworm
Posted: November 24, 2010
9:09 pm Eastern

By Bob Unruh
© 2010 WorldNetDaily


Syphilis, lice, gonorrhea, ringworm, chlamydia, staph, strep, noro and papilloma viruses all are part of the possible fringe benefits when airline passengers next go through a full hands-on pat-down by agents of the federal government's Transportation Security Administration, according to doctors.

WND reported two days ago on alarmed passengers who noted that TSA agents doing the pat-downs that have been described by critics as molestation since they include touching private body parts were not changing gloves between passengers. In fact, some apparently were patting down dozens of passengers or more wearing the same gloves.

But neither the TSA nor federal agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control was willing to comment on the possibilities that infections and other loathsome afflictions could be passed from passenger to passenger.

Now two doctors xxx8211; and several others xxx8211; have confirmed that there is the definite possibility that passengers will be able to catch whatever someone in front of them in line was suffering from via the latex gloves TSA workers use.

Join tens of thousands of Americans in a petition demanding action against the intrusive airport screening procedures implemented by Janet Napolitano and send a letter to Congress, President Obama and others telling them exactly what you think about the issue.

"There is no doubt that bacteria (staph, strep, v.cholerae etc.) and viruses (noro, enteroviruses, herpes, hepatitis A and papilloma viruses) can be spread by contaminated vinyl or latex gloves," Dr. Thomas Warner of Wisconsin told WND in a letter to the editor.

"If a traveler has diarrhea and is soiled, as can and does happen, the causative agent can be spread by this method since bacteria and viruses in moist environments have greater viability."

(Story continues below)



He continued. "The traveler readjusting clothes can easily get the infectious agents on their hands and therefore into their mouth, nose or eyes."

Added a pulmonary critical care physician from Connecticut who did not want to be identified by name, "That doesn't make sense that they're not changing gloves."

"Anything can be transmitted. If there are open wounds and they [TSA agents] are not aware, there's syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes, chlamydia, lice, ringworm."

Worse yet would be for people whose immune systems are compromised by treatments they may be having, including cancer patients, she said.

A Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agent wipes an explosives-detecting device over the hands of a female traveller as she undergoes security screening at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport in Washington November 24, 2010. Millions of Americans took to the skies on Wednesday for the start of the Thanksgiving holiday amid protests by some travellers about heightened, more invasive security procedures. REUTERS/Jason Reed (UNITED STATES - Tags: SOCIETY TRANSPORT)

Physicians undergo extensive training, follow strict rules and even have those who watch them to make sure they follow procedures to reduce to an absolute minimum the likelihood of carrying disease from one person to another, she said.

"How come if we as doctors have guidelines, we must wear gloves and have oversight, it's very different [for the TSA]," she said.

Warner told WND some of the infections are "a tough little beast" and easily would be spread through the contact being used by the TSA.

"Staphylococci are also tough and can be spread on fomites (eg . towels, tampons or gloves ) and survive in dry conditions. Methicillin resistant staph creates havoc in hospitals AND in those awaiting surgery (eg. traveling for a transplant ) when the 'carrier' patient must be clear of the bacterium before elective surgery," he said.

"Emerging infectious and tropical agents create another wild scenario," he said.

He said at a minimum gloves should be changed between pat-downs, "especially if the gloved hand is inside clothes or in the genital ... area even if clothed. Travelers should be advised of this and hand-wash and change clothes ASAP after these intimate examinations."

The CDC previously told WND to contact the TSA, which did not respond to inquiries, on the status of policies that would minimize the possibility of passing infections from one passenger to another.

The response today was the same, according to a WND reader who passed along his question to the CDC about the situation and the agency's response.

In response to a question about minimizing the possibility infections could be passed along, the CDC said:

Thank you for your inquiry to CDC-INFO. In response to your comments that Transportation Security Administration (TSA) agents are not changing gloves between the travelers that they pat-down, we are pleased to provide you with the following information.

If you are traveling and are going to be searched, you can request that the TSA agent change his or her gloves.

Endorsing the doctors' recommendations was a commentary at Natural News.com.

There, the editorial writer noted the intimacy of the pat-downs by the TSA, procedures which are required for some travelers and offered as an option to those who refuse to go through a full-body image scanner which essentially reveals a nude image of the passenger for TSA workers to review.

"Air travel passengers across America have been complaining of the TSA fingering their genitalia and touching their sex organs. Just this week, an ABC News employee was fingered by a TSA agent who felt around inside her underwear. ... This process of touching traveler's genitals without consistently changing latex gloves means the TSA is involved in extremely risky behavior that could spread disease," the website warned.

"TSA agents are not trained as medical personnel. Just as they don't seem to grasp the Bill of Rights, they also may not understand how infectious disease is spread. They aren't medical personnel; they're Big Brother enforcers who have likely never been taught the principles of how to conduct a sterile body search," the commentary said.

"If an athlete with jock itch (a fungal infection) undergoes a TSA pat-down, that TSA agent could spread the passenger's jock itch from his crotch to his armpits and neck. The same is true for a person suffering from ringworm or other skin fungal infections: Merely touching them and then touching another body part can cause them to spread," the website said. "Even worse, if that same TSA agent does not change his or her gloves between pat-downs, they could be spreading jock itch, ringworm or other infections from traveler to traveler. So traveler #2 could end up with the jock itch picked up from traveler #1."

In WND's original report on the issue of gloves online forum participants said it was clear the gloves are to protect the TSA agents, not provide any protection for passengers.

Martha Donahue in a commentary at Resistnet said she'd spent 30 years in the medical industry.

"For those of you who fly and opt for the 'pat down,' you need to demand the TSA thugs change their gloves. I've been watching on the news how they operate. People are being searched [with] dirty gloves ... gloves that have been in crotches, armpits, touching people who may be ill, people who pick their noses. Do you want those gloves touching you?

"These thugs are protecting themselves from you. You need to be protected from them," she wrote. "In a hospital, nursing home, in-home care, or even labs, that would never even be considered an option."

While the CDC referred questions about health and disease issues to the TSA, in its online writings the organization repeatedly makes clear the importance of maintaining clean hands to avoid such transmission of communicable and contagious afflictions.

Dr. Julie Gerberding, at the time the chief of the CDC, said during a special presentation on hand cleanliness, "We know that hand hygiene is a critical component of safe and healthy health care."

At the same time, Dr. John Boyce, lead author of the organization's hand-washing guidelines and the chairman of the Hand Hygiene Task Force, said, "There's a large study that was conducted at the University of Geneva Hospital in Switzerland where they demonstrated significant improvement in the adherence of health care workers to hand hygiene practices and they also showed that the incidence of antibiotic resistance to staph infections went down and that the overall prevalence of health care-acquired infections went down ... ."

Suggested Gerberding in the context of health care, "Hand hygiene saves lives. We're recommending a comprehensive evidence-based approach in hospitals that consists of handwashing with soap and water when the goal is to remove unsightly debris; hand alcohol preps for enhancing appearance and reducing bacterial counts; and gloving when people have contact with blood or other body fluids in accordance with universal precautions."

She said even in a "community setting," "washing with soap and water remains a very sensible strategy for hand hygiene."

Other health standards across the country routinely warn against hand contact with sores, lesions or other sources of viruses or contamination. The Lincoln, Neb., health site notes, "This includes hand contact."

Officials at the Canadian Center for Occupational Health noted that "hand washing is the single most effective way to prevent the spread of infections.

"You can spread certain 'germs' (a general term for microbes like viruses and bacteria) casually by touching another person. You can also catch germs when you touch contaminated objects or surfaces and then you touch your face (mouth, eyes, and nose)," it said.

On a TSA blog promoting the agency's actions and policies, one screener explained, "Changing gloves is fairly simple ... . When I gate screen I carry about 10-12 pairs in my pockets."

Respondents to the comment were outraged, "That's just plain disgusting and most certainly not acceptable ... procedures as set forth by the CDC for usage of gloves for protection," said one. "Reasoning being is that the bacteria count in your pockets is about the same is your mouth or armpit."

Wrote another forum participant, "Those gloves are soiled if they come out of your pockets and before handling my stuff you will be expected to obtain a clean, from the original container, pair. ... Who knows what filth inhabits your pockets!"
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Old 11-26-2010, 01:18 PM   #52
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Point: TSA is not using the gloves to protect you.

Think there's a larger lesson in that? I do.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:51 AM   #53
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

I'm getting more sickened by the article.

Is anyone else getting the impression that these over-the-top pat downs are the rule rather than the exception? I wonder if that's accurate. I hope we are only hearing about the absolute worst fringe cases. It wouldn't change my desire to be left the hell alone, but it would make me feel better about the TSA.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:58 AM   #54
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I don't know. But I am getting the sense that it's the rule in airports that have the new scanners.

I used to be of the opinion the scanners could not come too soon, but not anymore. First I heard you still have to remove shoes, belts, jackets, etc. So what's the point? And now the stories about the safety and oversight on these scanners isn't leaving me very comfy, especially given how political it is and the bureaucratic pressure on administrators to push the safety people aside or bury them.
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:03 AM   #55
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Worth following on Twitter if you are concerned...
We Won't Fly (WeWontFly) on Twitter

Interesting article here:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/1...-body-scanners
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:16 AM   #56
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Thanks Daphne for the eff.org link.
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:47 AM   #57
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Had a friend forward me a funny email about a proposed solution. I happen to think this could be very useful

Quote:
Have a bomb-proof booth that you can step into that will not x-ray you, but will detonate any explosive device you may have on your body. It would be a win-win for everyone, and there would be none of this crap about racial profiling and this method would eliminate a long and expensive trial. Justice would be quick and swift. This is so simple that it's brilliant. I can see it now. You're in the airport terminal and you hear a muffled explosion. Shortly thereafter an announcement comes over the PA system, "Attention standby passengers. We now have a seat available on flight number 4665 ..... Paging maintenance. Shop Vac needed in booth number 4."
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:50 AM   #58
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Hey, I know who sent you that!
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:43 PM   #59
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

Maybe the answer is in Wikileaks.
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Old 12-01-2010, 11:23 PM   #60
wabbit
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Default Re: Has the TSA gone too far?

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Originally Posted by juwaack68 View Post
Had a friend forward me a funny email about a proposed solution. I happen to think this could be very useful
haha funny... i like it in a twisted way :P
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