[aiharkness]

I believe the point you are missing is that with the smartphones you are the carrier's customer, as we have been saying over and over.

You are right that the "environment" has been changing, but from what I see it is more the carrier's doing than RIM. My example would be all the download link icons that are pushed to the devices that everyone I know just hides.

The security or lack thereof of the AT&T solution is really beside the point. We've been going around and around over your assertion that it's RIM's fault, or RIM should have known and done somthing about it, yada yada yada.

Come to grips with the fact that you are AT&T's customer. RIM makes the hardware. The carrier's sell it and to a great extent control what is on it and what is not (or what is locked out). And the software you were using was AT&T software, not RIM software. You are right that it should not have been turned on by default, and your complaint is with AT&T.

[jsconyers]

Here is what you are missing and this is where your issue is.

RIM creates the OS, then they send it to the carriers for testing. The carriers then add their bloatware to the OS, once it is tested, they make it available to the public. You downloaded and installed an OS released by AT&T, not RIM. RIM did not put this AT&T sync software on the OS when they sent it to AT&T, AT&T included it. You are blaming the wrong company here.

[rambo47]

Also, the carriers push service books directly onto your device. These service books can effect how your BlackBerry behaves. Delete the service books the carrier pushes to you and they'll just push them right back.

[aiharkness]

Bottom line, blaming RIM is like blaming an automaker because the dealer put undercoat on your new car without asking you if you wanted it, except RIM probably has even less influence with carriers than automakers have over dealers.

[NoBox]

Nope, not missing any of those points. But, in your efforts to defend BB you are missing or ignoring my point.

I am the customer of both ATT and RIM. Not just one or the other. This is emphasized when I have a need for tech support and often I end up at RIM for resolution. It is also emphasized when in the screen displays, agreements, etc on the device itself. BB is very quick to point out and make the customer acknowledge that they are going to a non-BB site.

In your desire to absolve RIM/BB of all sin you are missing the fundamental point that both the carrier and BB interface directly with the customer. RIM is not some faceless hardware manufacturer at the mercy of the carrier. It is an integral part of what and how the customer does and experiences.

At the most basic level the biggest thing BB had going for it was its' security followed by its' email and internet capability. Security is no more. In short it is no longer a distinctive product. As stated originally my complaint is that BB changed the security protocols without telling me so I could make alternative arrangements. So, the privacy of my contacts was violated without my consent and with only scant notice that it was being done.

Thus, I have to reevaluate what phone I use and my protocols where had that not been done I'd have gone on automatically using RIM products. A bit more effort for me a potential loss of customers because many of the folks on my list were BB users.

[aiharkness]

No motive on my part other than to call it like I see it.

[NJBlackBerry]

Security is no more?
Really..

Enjoy your next phone. Clearly the BB company has let you down.

[jsconyers]

Wow, seriously, there is no helping you. You see what you want to see and nothing else. Sometimes you need to open your closed mind and close your open mouth to see the full picture.

Yes, RIM is more than a hardware manufacturer, but what happened with your contacts has NOTHING to do with RIM. Go get an iPhone on AT&T, or an Android device, do you think those devices won't come equipped with the same AT&T sync software, or a variation of it? I guess Apple, HTC, Motorola, etc are all in cahoots with RIM to get your contact info. The world is against you.

Seriously, your issue is not with RIM, not with their security, not with their practices, etc. It is with AT&T's sync app that was installed on your phone. I would guess more likely than not, you enabled the sync app to allow it to sync your contacts without even noticing it at the time.

I find it funny that out of the many AT&T BB users, you are the only one that has complained about this on the forum. So either, no one else cares about security, or they didn't enable the sync software on their devices.

[NoBox]

Originally Posted by NJBlackBerry

Security is no more?
Really..

Enjoy your next phone. Clearly the BB company has let you down.

Yes they have. And in the process have squandered the edge they had in the minds of me and my aquaintances. For us a phone is not a hobby or a fashion statement. It is a tool.

[NoBox]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

Wow, seriously, there is no helping you. You see what you want to see and nothing else. Sometimes you need to open your closed mind and close your open mouth to see the full picture.

Yes, RIM is more than a hardware manufacturer, but what happened with your contacts has NOTHING to do with RIM. Go get an iPhone on AT&T, or an Android device, do you think those devices won't come equipped with the same AT&T sync software, or a variation of it? I guess Apple, HTC, Motorola, etc are all in cahoots with RIM to get your contact info. The world is against you.

Seriously, your issue is not with RIM, not with their security, not with their practices, etc. It is with AT&T's sync app that was installed on your phone. I would guess more likely than not, you enabled the sync app to allow it to sync your contacts without even noticing it at the time.

I find it funny that out of the many AT&T BB users, you are the only one that has complained about this on the forum. So either, no one else cares about security, or they didn't enable the sync software on their devices.

Not the only one that has noticed. Just the only one I know who didn't just junk the phone and move on.


Wasn't given the option of accepting synch or not.

[NJBlackBerry]

Again, complain to AT&T.
They added the code. And I'm sure along the way you accepted an End User License and agreed to it. They know no one reads the EULAs and just hits accept.

[jsconyers]

Originally Posted by NJBlackBerry

Again, complain to AT&T.
They added the code. And I'm sure along the way you accepted an End User License and agreed to it. They know no one reads the EULAs and just hits accept.

This ^^^

[jsconyers]

Keep Blaming RIM. While you're doing that, take a look here:

Suprises Show Up in At&t Firmware Update | Windows Phone Metro

And, also blame the rest of these manufacturers.

Address Book - Phones Supported | AT&T

[hrbuckley]

Um, Wow.

So after reading all of this I decided I had to have a look at what the stink is all about. From the RIM KB article on the product:
"After an account is created, contacts can be added, edited, and viewed using this online resource. The contacts are saved on the AT&T network, and can be easily recovered or restored in the event of an upgrade, damage, or loss of a BlackBerry smartphone. Below is a list of features advertised with the AT&T Address Book"...

So I agree with the OP on security of the information once AT&T gets their hands on it. It would take a very carefully designed system to ensure that the data stays secure and allow the customer to interact with it via a website. No where in AT&T documentation do they provide any information about how they protected the data in there care, but they are very clear that they accept no responsability for what might happen to it.

On the other hand, it is also quite clear that the customer must create an account and accept the terms before making use of the service. If the OP can prove that no such agreement was ever made, then a case could be made that AT&T commited a crime in transfering data from the OP's computing device to their databases, data theft, essentially. I'm not as familiar with US laws as I am with Canadian but clearly the complaint, if it is valid, would be with AT&T who have allegedly aquired the data without proper authorization.

There also seems to be plenty of notification that the service has been added, both from AT&T and RIM.

RIM builds the most secure smart phone platform available. But they also provide enough flexabality for software to provide capabilities that users may want, such as the AT&T address book.

Anyway my question is, given the importance the OP puts on security of the personal data on a smart phone, what is the next phone going to be, Android, an iPhone?

[aiharkness]

buckley, your shilling for RIM is just shameless. I mean, facts, links, actually quoting from KB article, I mean, just rediculous.

[hrbuckley]

Originally Posted by aiharkness

buckley, your shilling for RIM is just shameless. I mean, facts, links, actually quoting from KB article, I mean, just rediculous.

Caught me. But what am I supposed to do, as a BB software developer and RIM already circling the drain my career is looking like its already over.

[PJD642]

Originally Posted by NoBox

For us a phone is not a hobby or a fashion statement. It is a tool.

Personally, it's not the phone that I see as being the "tool" here....

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by NoBox

As stated originally my complaint is that BB changed the security protocols without telling me so I could make alternative arrangements.

NO! One more time, slowly - although I'm sure you won't bother listening any better this time than you have the last several times everyone has tried to explain it to you.

BB (RIM) did NOT change "the security protocols" without "telling you so you could make alternative arrangements." If anyone changed the "security protocols," it was AT&T, not RIM. The configuration of your device is set and controlled by the carrier, NOT RIM - no matter whether you can talk to RIM tech support sometimes or not.

But, since I'm sure you'll not listen this time either - please don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out - to one of those MUCH more secure Android, iPhone or whatever device. [/sarcasm]

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by jsconyers

Address Book - Phones Supported | AT&T

Whoa! You mean to tell us that there are 25 different handsets that this software comes with from AT&T, and only ONE of them is a BlackBerry?!?!?! How in the world did RIM get their hands on those other 24 to change their "security protocols" without anyone finding out before this - since its OBVIOUSLY RIM's fault that this is happening?!?!?! This could turn out to be a HUGE conspiracy on RIM's behalf, those sneaky bastages! Thanks for bringing this to our attention, NoBox!!! [/tin foil hat]

[NoBox]

Originally Posted by hrbuckley

Um, Wow...
So I agree with the OP on security of the information once AT&T gets their hands on it. It would take a very carefully designed system to ensure that the data stays secure and allow the customer to interact with it via a website. No where in AT&T documentation do they provide any information about how they protected the data in there care, but they are very clear that they accept no responsability for what might happen to it.

On the other hand, it is also quite clear that the customer must create an account and accept the terms before making use of the service. If the OP can prove that no such agreement was ever made, then a case could be made that AT&T commited a crime in transfering data from the OP's computing device to their databases, data theft, essentially. I'm not as familiar with US laws as I am with Canadian but clearly the complaint, if it is valid, would be with AT&T who have allegedly aquired the data without proper authorization.

There also seems to be plenty of notification that the service has been added, both from AT&T and RIM.

RIM builds the most secure smart phone platform available. But they also provide enough flexabality for software to provide capabilities that users may want, such as the AT&T address book.

..

(partial quote because the system won't let me quote URLs)

Well, I definitely fall short in my research. When I was notified of the upgrade I did not immediately go to either the RIM or ATT sites to read all the KB articles. I just followed the steps for the upgrade which did not require me to do anything but watch. No ATT app or aggreement was offered for approval but it apparently was loaded. I watched three Torches upgrade and none of them had to agree to an ATT aggreement. In fact I just tried to read the ATT blurb on the subject but it was not available on their site.

Smartphone security is an interesting subject. Most people just don't care. Others care and take other ways of protecting their data. In fact the reason I selected Blackberry in the first place was because it was touted as the most secure phone. Now, as was pointed out by another poster, it is just another phone and I will treat it as such.

In this case I'm not sure it is a "big stink". It is more like a conversation between a person who looks at the phone as a tool and people who are either hobbiests or pros in the business.

What will I do? Notify others their information I had on their contact cards has been shipped to ATT and on to whoever ATT chooses to give it to. In my case because my personal information was lost/compromised by an insurance company I already have monitoring in place courtesy of that company. Next time I buy a phone I will consider other phones, not just blackberry, as will my associates.

Caveat Emptor.