[slinky]

On my way to work it hit me what is the easiest way to understand the true differences between PDA vs BB.

BB - Designed to do the following very well:

* Email viewing and responding
* Contacts and calendar management
* Reliability of handling those two without crashing
* It is a business enterprise tool based on connectivity to the server

It excels in those 4 tasks. It is not designed to do more such as the following:

* Offline activities, e.g. browsing, document reading
* Not a convergent mobile device
* Storage of native files or view/edit of same
* Introduction of applications into the device/OS

The navigation sucks because it was designed not to use that many applications. As bad as it does this task, it does a great job of contact/email management. That is what it does extremely. It keeps you in contact with a larger office and in connection with them.

The BB is not designed to be a convergent mobile device, only communications device with your office. Unless you use your device primarily for work, you'll likely be disappointed and find better options. If you use it primarily for work and rarely for other than communication, you'll enjoy it and not miss the options. If you are someone who is already at the point where you use your mobile device as the convergence between laptop and phone (which is what the iPhone resolution is supposed to be the harbinger of what is to come) then you'll be frustrated by the Blackberry's shortcomings although you'll appreciate the office connection portion.

It will be interesting to see who will get "there" first. There is no question that the phone will quickly bridge the gap with your laptop, although not replace it entirely. As MS continues to integrate BB like features into Exchange server and improve the interface the benefits of the BB will diminish. Then again, this is the same company that made Office 2003 into a terminal clicking mess with Office 2007...

[bryawn]

Yes a Treo or Windows Mobile offer greater ability to add bells and whistles into the device. I certainly sampled lots of apps on my Treo and found that I basically never used them. Sure it could be a media player, but an iPod Nano with iTunes is so much better. (Also the Treo had an intermittent background clicking during playback when it checked for mail. Maybe it was just my Treo, but heard of that problem from others due to the antiquated Palm OS's failure to support true multi-tasking).

For any kind of real work, I always keep a laptop with me. The only time I really need to the smartphone for anything is when I'm out and about and what to keep in touch with mail, talk to people, check my calendar or do phone number/map look ups. As you point out, the BlackBerry is very good at this.

For me the show stopper with convergent mobile devices is the tiny screen and keyboard. Palm clearly recognizes that with the Foleo. I think living with one device, for most people, is something of a fantasy. Trying to surf the web, read mail for extended periods, compose blog/forum posts, or watch movies all suck on 320x240 screens and thumb keyboards. Until we have fold-out displays or some breakthrough like that, I'm not seeing it working, at least for the mainstream.

Ultimately, for what I really want from a smartphone, BlackBerry works well. Things I see as notable upgrades over the Treo:

- excellent sound quality, a noticeable improvement. Truly crystal clear.
- speedier e-mail. I was using Verizon's Wireless sync and BlackBerry is an upgrade, although both work well enough for me.
- no touch screen. I had to screw with the stupid stylus too often on the Treo. Trackball is much faster and lower hassle factor.
- Beyond411 - great app for finding local services/phone numbers Super fast and reliable.
- Much better looking and more stylish device. With the ugly antenna sticking out, Verizon Treo offerings are very dated looking and clunky.

Don't care at all about most of the apps available for Treo. Just don't have time to bother. I never could get IM to work on the Treo. JiveTalk is great on the BB, but really I just don't use IM on the BB very much. As for the rest of the stuff, I use real apps on human-sized computers with nice keyboards and multiple monitors.

[psxiloveyou]

Originally Posted by slinky

Hi guys - I was just forced to leave my Palm at home and carry a Blackberry. So the 8830 and 8300 series (great marketing) look cool on the outside but I'm finding out how much I cannot get on the inside. There may be some learning curve issues but at first glance I'm noticing:

(1) Blackberry applications cost anywhere from 2-4 times the amount of Palm or PocketPC applications and might not even be as good. These are even for the same suite or individual applications.

(2) Basic applications are not available for the Blackberry like... a universal document viewer? I can't seem to find anything capable of simply reading my doc, xls, txt, lit, pdb, pdf, ppt files.

(3) If I CAN find applications to simply read any of the above files, the developers are treating the numerous of us individual users as if we were an enterprise (a) looking to buy something in bulk, and (b) as a SERVICE, the root of all that is bad with the BB (so it seems to me at the moment.) So I can't just get a damn doc viewer, I need to buy a viewing SERVICE for 3 month periods or a year.

(4) There is a host of applications not available for BB that make life wonderful on general PDAs. I'm not sure of the reason for this, e.g. mapping applications that don't require a connection, local maps such as train/subway/bus, etc. No built in voice recorder/note taker, etc.

(5) Navigation can leave something to be desired. For example, Email is pretty good although I find that snappermail for Palm (just hit "d" and your messages are deleted!) is a superior application for easy navigation. This might be a matter of figuring out all the hidden keystrokes but I didn't find it so simple.

So that's why I'm hating it right now. The Blackberry does push email and a few other things. Great. Still can't read my docs. I'm wondering if other PDA phone owners have felt the same about what a letdown the Blackberry has been.

I went from being a palm user (about five different palm pilots) to a blackberry and I haven't gone back since. there isn't any letdown because it is a different operating system. the blackberry serves as a smartphone, not a pda. it had pda features though. so no letdown. download eoffice for reading programs. you just have to search around. and if you have to spend alittle more to do this, then so be it.

[psxiloveyou]

Originally Posted by slinky

Regarding the apps... so, where are they? I can't find any document editing tools either. The only one is the Office suite that sells for $150 for the standard edition and apparently does not work for the 8830 series.

Regarding the ASP - Repligo is a phenomenal piece of software. Converts all your docs into viewable ones on your little PDA screen. Unfortunately them and others have made this into a service for the BB. Instead of paying $30-40 and converting your docs they have to do it for you and charge you per quarter for this "service." Then you have to have them sent outside your organization to a third party to download onto your BB. It's a security issue as well.

eoffice editions are compatible with the 8830
the basic edition costs $119.95

[slinky]

Originally Posted by psxiloveyou

eoffice editions are compatible with the 8830
the basic edition costs $119.95

I tried it and it didn't work with native office applications for me. Add to the fact that Dataviz is coming out with a solution that does for a host of native apps. Thanks for the suggestion though.

The additional frustration is that the BB system right now doesn't allow me to download any documents. It's a bummer. I'm going to try to forward these emails to my Yahoo account so that I can download them to my BB's SD card via the web. I guess the security is no longer secure if it can be beaten that easily.

[slinky]

Originally Posted by bryawn

For me the show stopper with convergent mobile devices is the tiny screen and keyboard. Palm clearly recognizes that with the Foleo. I think living with one device, for most people, is something of a fantasy. Trying to surf the web, read mail for extended periods, compose blog/forum posts, or watch movies all suck on 320x240 screens and thumb keyboards. Until we have fold-out displays or some breakthrough like that, I'm not seeing it working, at least for the mainstream.

I like your points. With regard to this one I think the point of a convergent mobile device is that nobody is trying to substitute a mobile phone for a laptop. It's only a tool that will enable you not to have to carry a laptop for what amounts to simple tasks that used to require one just to get small tasks done.

One such area I differ in perspective than you is multimedia and entertainment. The PDA will not replace your big screen for movies nor is it intended to be. It will provide you with GREAT entertainment on a plane or even a daily commute the same way an iPod or SanDisk player will. I know people that watch a South Park episode on their daily subway ride. It's a beautiful thing. Surfing the web to find all sorts of information while remote, e.g. movie theatre times, another restaurant, what products were rated when you're in a store and didn't do prior research, on the way to a client and realizing you have some new requirements to look up, small edits to documents that can be sent to your secretary for dispatch, etc. You couldn't do any of these things prior without a laptop. Now the power of the PDA, the larger screen, higher resolution and greater bandwidth all make this possible. Having all your office docs available at your fingertips for a quick look when you're en route or after hours without your laptop is a great help.

Ultimately, for what I really want from a smartphone, BlackBerry works well. Things I see as notable upgrades over the Treo..........

Don't care at all about most of the apps available for Treo. Just don't have time to bother. I never could get IM to work on the Treo. JiveTalk is great on the BB, but really I just don't use IM on the BB very much. As for the rest of the stuff, I use real apps on human-sized computers with nice keyboards and multiple monitors.

I hear you - but you have the luxury of using them. With all the moving I do around the city carrying a laptop everywhere just isn't practical. IM works fine on the Palm although one app gave me fits -- just like IM+ on the BB which seems to take forever to connect, if it does.

I don't disagree with you about the upgrades the BB has over the Treo. I'm glad it works for you and, like may, it is what is best for you and does the job better. What I'm saying is that for those of us who have used a PDA for many years and did more than just email and contacts, we do notice a signficant difference and it can be frustrating since the BB just isn't as flexible. Right now I've put together a list of as many apps as I could that will crank as much functionality out of the 8830 as possible. The items I really miss - and I'm sure I'm not alone - are the following:

(1) No ability to lock email messages and store/file ones you want to hold onto
(2) Inability to unerase an email (trash/purge option)
(3) Other than email/contacts, navigation really sucks if you have apps

What frustrates the hell out of me lately is that the media player keeps going bananas. I'll have it change songs on me if an email arrives. I'll get "media read" errors when that occurs too. I'll be trying to read an email and then the MP will start to play for some odd reason. It's got some real kinks here.

And for heaven's sake, could we get a printed manual and good chart of all the key shortcuts?

Last few things: How do pull up a keypad so you can see what letters are assigned to numbers, e.g. -1-800-dum-mass? Is there a way to get my call log out of my messages repository? Is there a way to see all my sms message threads? Why does my call log disappear after one day? Don't get me wrong, the email/contacts integration is GREAT. But while dialing and looking up numbers is fabulous, the total lack of intuition for the sms/phone/log is incredibly frustrating.

[bryawn]

Originally Posted by slinky

Last few things: How do pull up a keypad so you can see what letters are assigned to numbers, e.g. -1-800-dum-mass? Is there a way to get my call log out of my messages repository? Is there a way to see all my sms message threads? Why does my call log disappear after one day? Don't get me wrong, the email/contacts integration is GREAT. But while dialing and looking up numbers is fabulous, the total lack of intuition for the sms/phone/log is incredibly frustrating.

These are some valid points. The Treo has the best SMS/MMS system I've seen on any phone. What really sucks is that Verizon has disabled MMS on the 8830, although people can send pix to an e-mail address if need be. An on-screen keypad would be useful for reference, but I can't see using the trackball to actually dial. If Palm comes out with something more modern than 700p at some point, I might be tempted, especially if Verizon doesn't free up the MMS on the 8830. Unfortunately, the fuzzy photos of the latest palm designs don't give me a lot of cause for hope.

[blackmac]

I've never had any PDA device before now. I bought a blackberry curve three days ago. I'm not using it for business - I just wanted a phone that would allow me to do more, and I've heard great things from blackberry users. Here are some of my gripes; maybe some of you with more experience could help me out:
A) I can't seem to get a macromedia flash player on the browser -any idea?
B) Some sites tell me that I don't have javascripts enabled, but I specifically went in and set them. Actually, the main site that's done this has been hotmail.com. I mean, granted, I now set up my hotmail to be forwarded to my phone, but there's still no reason that it should have even been an issue - or am I wrong?
C) the phone will sometimes just get sick of loading a site if there are too many pictures or there's too much information... and it'll completely lock up and render itself useless for a minimum of 10 minutes. (For this last reason, I actually called cingular and am having it replaced - the replacement handset is at my house right now, but I'm at work and can't switch to the new one 'til I get home)

I'm not bashing blackberry - I'm well aware that these devices are really meant for business uses. AND - when this thing works well, it's amazing and I love it and drool a bit. But when it doesn't work it's highly frustrating - especially when it just freezes up for no reason.

PS: is there a way to load safari or internet explorer on here instead of blackberry's browser?

[slinky]

Originally Posted by blackmac

I've never had any PDA device before now. I bought a blackberry curve three days ago. I'm not using it for business - I just wanted a phone that would allow me to do more, and I've heard great things from blackberry users. Here are some of my gripes; maybe some of you with more experience could help me out:
A) I can't seem to get a macromedia flash player on the browser -any idea?
B) Some sites tell me that I don't have javascripts enabled, but I specifically went in and set them. Actually, the main site that's done this has been hotmail.com. I mean, granted, I now set up my hotmail to be forwarded to my phone, but there's still no reason that it should have even been an issue - or am I wrong?
C) the phone will sometimes just get sick of loading a site if there are too many pictures or there's too much information... and it'll completely lock up and render itself useless for a minimum of 10 minutes. (For this last reason, I actually called cingular and am having it replaced - the replacement handset is at my house right now, but I'm at work and can't switch to the new one 'til I get home)

I'm not bashing blackberry - I'm well aware that these devices are really meant for business uses. AND - when this thing works well, it's amazing and I love it and drool a bit. But when it doesn't work it's highly frustrating - especially when it just freezes up for no reason.

In defense of the BB - and nobody here will accuse me of being a BlackBerry hugger, even PDAs won't do necessarily what you want.

(A) I'm not sure flash player is available on the BB platform at this time. The only one I know for sure it has been released on are PocketPC devices.

(B) I have the same problem and you are not alone. The default browser is both good and challenging at times. This is also not restricted to the BB. You should download the Opera Mini browser (search for it in any search engine.) It is both better and terrible at the same time. I find that it renders pages better for certain sites but it also has zero options, e.g. refresh.

(C) I too have experienced the dreaded 5 minute lockups now. So much for absolute stability, wishing there was a reset hole. But that also is sometimes not the fault of phone and, even more so, you'll have limits of the memory footprint on any mobile browser. That may change as time passes. Many of the sites you are surfing are apparently optimized for desktop computers and will show more data down the pipe than your phone can handle. Hey... it's a small device with limited memory - how can you compare a 160 GB hard drive and 1-2GB of RAM versus a device that barely contains 5% of just 1 GB for everything?

I can tell you that you'll have problems surfing many high-media interfaces. PDA devices will probably conquer this first as I doubt BB has priority to service that area first but you never know. Perhaps others have ideas here too. Good luck.

[slinky]

Originally Posted by bryawn

An on-screen keypad would be useful for reference, but I can't see using the trackball to actually dial. If Palm comes out with something more modern than 700p at some point, I might be tempted, especially if Verizon doesn't free up the MMS on the 8830. Unfortunately, the fuzzy photos of the latest palm designs don't give me a lot of cause for hope.

The MMS crippling was criminal and insane. Not that I use it now but our company just put in a major investment to acquire and promote such an application and I can't even use it or test it any more. Nobody at my place believed me when I told them that Verizon Wireless crippled this too.

What are you using for SMS handling/viewing? I wish I could just see the threads. I may actually need to get a keypad reference picture to make sure I'm dialing correctly, lol. This was a huge oversight, no? After all, how do you search through a corporate telephone directly if you don't have the number!!!!

[blackmac]

Originally Posted by slinky

In defense of the BB - and nobody here will accuse me of being a BlackBerry hugger, even PDAs won't do necessarily what you want.

(A) I'm not sure flash player is available on the BB platform at this time. The only one I know for sure it has been released on are PocketPC devices.

(B) I have the same problem and you are not alone. The default browser is both good and challenging at times. This is also not restricted to the BB. You should download the Opera Mini browser (search for it in any search engine.) It is both better and terrible at the same time. I find that it renders pages better for certain sites but it also has zero options, e.g. refresh.

(C) I too have experienced the dreaded 5 minute lockups now. So much for absolute stability, wishing there was a reset hole. But that also is sometimes not the fault of phone and, even more so, you'll have limits of the memory footprint on any mobile browser. That may change as time passes. Many of the sites you are surfing are apparently optimized for desktop computers and will show more data down the pipe than your phone can handle. Hey... it's a small device with limited memory - how can you compare a 160 GB hard drive and 1-2GB of RAM versus a device that barely contains 5% of just 1 GB for everything?

I can tell you that you'll have problems surfing many high-media interfaces. PDA devices will probably conquer this first as I doubt BB has priority to service that area first but you never know. Perhaps others have ideas here too. Good luck.

Thanks for the opera mini suggestion; I'm going to try it today
I hooked up my replacement handset - so far it seems a little better for internet; the same sites still don't load, but rather than the whole phone locking up, the browser just wouldn't work and the phone slowed down but worked... so I turned it off and back on, and when it turned back on, the phone told me that there was a problem with the browser so it had closed. Fine by me!
My latest problem is that the thing to hook up my e-mail so they'll come to my new phone isn't working. "Unable to connect to the selected provisioning server, please try again later. If the problem persists, please contact your service provider."
I'm hardly floundering without my hotmail... I'll call cingular later ::eyeroll::

[blackmac]

for opera mini, it says my phone model was not detected (blackberry 8300)... should i download the high memory or the low memory version??

[bpritch]

I know this thread has been dormant for a few days, and I hesitate replying...but I can't help myself.

It seems to me slinky, that if you spent even half as much energy learning about your BB as you do complaining about what it can't do...you'd be a BB master. And I don't mean that as an insult. I'd love it if my car could fly, but my car just isn't build to do that. So instead, I learn what it CAN do instead of wishing and complaining about what it can't. It seems your problem is along these same lines.

These forums are a wealth of information, pretty much anything you want to know, do a search and you'll find your answer. I hope that you get the answers you're looking for.

[JSanders]

Originally Posted by slinky

(1) No ability to lock email messages and store/file ones you want to hold onto

Messages > SAVE

Originally Posted by slinky

(3) Other than email/contacts, navigation really sucks if you have apps

That observation and criticism is so subjective. Mine has absolutely wonderful and quite intuitive navigation. You just need to learn it.

Originally Posted by slinky

And for heaven's sake, could we get a printed manual and good chart of all the key shortcuts?

Yea, pay me the price, I'll be glad to send you both. It so much easier to just read online for me, and the shortcut reference chart i printed out and kept with me a few days until I memorized by utilization the ones I needed most. Until then, the price is right!

Originally Posted by slinky

Last few things: How do pull up a keypad so you can see what letters are assigned to numbers, e.g. -1-800-dum-mass?

Hold down the ALT key and dial the letters you need when working in a corporate directory or calling a number like 1-800-IWHINETOOMUCH. Your BB will interpret the correct number assigned.

Originally Posted by slinky

Is there a way to get my call log out of my messages repository?

Yes. Answered on this board hundreds of times. Did you say please? Oh you probably never would, so here: Phone > Options > Call Logging > NONE.

Originally Posted by slinky

Why does my call log disappear after one day?

Because you have too much crap in your device memory, and the BB will cannibalize its call log at the safety of apps and continuing to send your urgent email to the device.
Why is my BlackBerry losing its call logs or message logs? - BlackBerryFAQ


P.S.: Re-read the second and third paragraphs of BPirtch's comments above. Ditto.

[Dawg]

Originally Posted by JSanders

Messages > SAVE


That observation and criticism is so subjective. Mine has absolutely wonderful and quite intuitive navigation. You just need to learn it.


Yea, pay me the price, I'll be glad to send you both. It so much easier to just read online for me, and the shortcut reference chart i printed out and kept with me a few days until I memorized by utilization the ones I needed most. Until then, the price is right!


Hold down the ALT key and dial the letters you need when working in a corporate directory or calling a number like 1-800-IWHINETOOMUCH. Your BB will interpret the correct number assigned.

Yes. Answered on this board hundreds of times. Did you say please? Oh you probably never would, so here: Phone > Options > Call Logging > NONE.

Because you have too much crap in your device memory, and the BB will cannibalize its call log at the safety of apps and continuing to send your urgent email to the device.
Why is my BlackBerry losing its call logs or message logs? - BlackBerryFAQ


P.S.: Re-read the second and third paragraphs of BPirtch's comments above. Ditto.

That was perfect! and I love the 1 800 Iwhinetoomuch

[slinky]

I'm sure you two clowns are praising yourselves but it's too bad that you just can't face facts that the BB is tops in contacts management and receiving and sending email but it really ends there. It does the most common business tasks well.

bpritch: If we had $1 for every clown who felt so important that he should type "RTFM" - but then have nothing to say - we'd be rich beyond the imagiation. Thanks for beating the pinada without anything to say.

Jsanders: It seems that you've spent more time trying to come up with not so witty answers to only the minor details. Repeating it 1,000 times isn't going to make the Blackberry what it isn't - nor has it gone unnoticed that you found 1 item that may have been in the manual and the rest you choose to ignore as if they don't exist.

1) The "save" dumps everything in one repository. A poor man's solution when options are limited. Thanks for the info.

2) Even the most staunch BB huggers have admitted that the navigation needs lots of work, especially with many apps. Learn what? That I have a huge folder with loads of apps stuffed in it and all my mail folders? Quit protesting the obvious - it would help if the BB next implemented an option with a hierarchical menu that wouldn't require all those clicks and scrolling.

3) The fact that you have time and had to make an effort to PRINT OUT A REFERENCE CHART is pathetic. Obviously you've got loads of time on your hands but for some of us, our time is valuable. Having shortcut keystrokes in the menu has been in software for over a decade and everyone does it except for BB. You're only making a jackass out of yourself by responding for the sole purpose of trying to deride me.

4) Thanks for the "intuitive" key combination - that's all that was necessary. But having a keypad on the screen provides many different benefits for reference purposes and it's not even an option in the dialer.

5) If my Blackeberry is running out of memory with just a few applications installed, then it's underpowered. Apparently if you read the forums, which apparently you didn't because you were too busy trying to be clever (key word here is "trying") there apparently is a memory leak as well. It's a problem. Gotta deal with. These devices should have more memory which is dirt cheap. Loads of other people here feel the same.

But you ignored the biggest problems I'm having -- attachments are unreadable. All I needed was a native document reader so I wouldn't need BB's fuzzy graphic conversions. But hey, there are loads of things my PDA could do that whip the Blackberry silly. But I've had to come to terms that for the most part I do lots of email and contacts and at least the BB does that better than any other device - with the exception of attachments handling. It's great for what it is and that's all. For some of you that's plenty and I respect that.

[slinky]

Originally Posted by Dawg

That was perfect! and I love the 1 800 Iwhinetoomuch

Ooooh... how cool you guys are!!!! If you don't like my comments, please dial 1-800-EAT-S... ;)

[Pizzle]

[JSanders]

Wirelessly posted (8700g: BlackBerry8800/4.2.1 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Originally Posted by slinky

Ooooh... how cool you guys are!!!! If you don't like my comments, please dial 1-800-EAT-S... ;)

1-At least I can write without resorting to base immature foulness.
2- I answered your legitimate questions/whines of yours. I offered learned suggestions of what you could do with your BlackBerry (save one, from which I will refrain) and you continue to debate them any and help offered.
I'd still suggest you just get another device and dump the BlackBerry...but oh yea--your "employer" is forcing you to use it.

[slinky]

ROFLMAO. If it didn't occur to you, your oh-so-creative attempts to be super smart have been done better for years and embodied in a bumper sticker with the same immature number. You really do need to get out more. Spending too much time indoors memorizing how to stroke your BlackBerry. ;)

All in good fun. It is what it is and I've come to accept it and its limitations. I can't wait for Dataviz to provide some needed magic...